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Topic Title: Periodic Inspection
Topic Summary: Im just not quick enough
Created On: 16 June 2009 08:10 PM
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 16 June 2009 08:10 PM
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flashtestdummy

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Obviously im not going to mention any names, but I work for a large nationwide Inspection Company.

Basically we have targets we must hit every day with a bonus paid per circuit after the target is met.

Now im not interested in making any bonuses, im more interested in doing the job properly.

A lot of the jobs I come across are not labbelled/charted and have no Periodic Inspection records but the company policy remains the same - the target must be met.

BTW the company policy is 30 circuits per day. On some jobs this is acheiveable but the majority of the time it isnt (unless corners are cut)

Now as a moral issue I test properly, I would rather sleep easy knowing this than cut corners for a few extra shillings.

Is it bad practice for a Large Nationwide company to operate with targets like this?
 16 June 2009 08:20 PM
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truss

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Originally posted by: flashtestdummy

Obviously im not going to mention any names, but I work for a large nationwide Inspection Company.


Go on, tell us



Now im not interested in making any bonuses, im more interested in doing the job properly.


Good on ya.




BTW the company policy is 30 circuits per day. On some jobs this is acheiveable but the majority of the time it isnt (unless corners are cut)


30 circuits? That could quite easily be 5 or 6 PIRs a day. It's simply not possible to do 30 circuits properly in 1 day.



Is it bad practice for a Large Nationwide company to operate with targets like this?


I think so, yes.

regards
 16 June 2009 08:25 PM
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industryspark

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I had the pleasure of reading a PIR done on one of our factories performed by a large-ish company who are NICEIC registered.

The guy who did it was set similar targets. The report wasnt worth the paper it was written on. Awefull.

Stand your ground and at least you can sleep easy at night.
 16 June 2009 08:42 PM
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GeoffBlackwell

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What has all this talk of number of circuits got to do with conducting a PIR on a large complex installation. I do many of these each year - some on rolling contracts that have run for years.

I am afraid if any of you believe that churning out large numbers of circuit test results is the way to do a large PIR - well don't ask me for job.

Try reading section 621 and if you must, GN3.

As an example - if you can't assess the area covered in a commercial building by, say, a 48 way distribution board - in under half a day - don't call me .

Regards

Geoff Blackwell
 16 June 2009 08:47 PM
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rikhill

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I agree with Geoff - it all depends on the environment,

30 circuits translated into domestic boards is rather steep - in a commercial environment it strikes me as an entirely reasonable target.

Companies become Large Nationwide Companies because they set targets like this across every aspect of their business.
 16 June 2009 08:54 PM
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flashtestdummy

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Originally posted by: GeoffBlackwell

What has all this talk of number of circuits got to do with conducting a PIR on a large complex installation. I do many of these each year - some on rolling contracts that have run for years.



I am afraid if any of you believe that churning out large numbers of circuit test results is the way to do a large PIR - well don't ask me for job.



Try reading section 621 and if you must, GN3.



As an example - if you can't assess the area covered in a commercial building by, say, a 48 way distribution board - in under half a day - don't call me .



Regards



Geoff Blackwell


You have absolutley confudled me, I dont know weather you agree or not!
 16 June 2009 09:13 PM
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truss

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For the record i was speaking in domestic terms - house basher that i am!
 16 June 2009 09:32 PM
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GeoffBlackwell

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Well start by realising that a PIR is not just an exercise in circuit testing. The main aim is to ensure that the installation - or that part of it you are assessing - is in a satisfactory condition for continued service.

This is a quick guide - I have not given it a detailed consideration so I offer no guarantees with it .

So lets take our 48 way distribution board and assume that it feeds a mixture of lighting and power (mainly socket outlets) over one floor of a commercial office.

I will assume that main bonding and the like is elsewhere and not part of our particular job, and that it is in place.

First we conduct a quick visual inspection of the whole area to assess its main contents and look for any obvious damage or hazards that may affect us. The aim is to see that it is safe to start a more detailed inspection and to do some testing. Jumping straight to the DB - we first check its physical condition and look for any obvious defects such as open entries and loose or inadequate cable terminations etc.

Next we open it up (oh no we have exposed live conductors ) - inspect it - then switch off all loads expect those controlled by RCDs (I don't want them moved yet) and carry out a safe isolation procedure - always remembering that they do not, in fact, work as we will always be at risk from borrowed neutral faults.

Disconnect the neutral link and do an insulation test between all phases and neutral joined together, to earth. If all is clear (rare ) that is job done for IR testing. If not check neutral to earth - this could apply the test voltage across loads via any fault so check for vulnerable loads - and make some effort to isolate the faulty circuit(s) - spend no more than 1/2 hour doing this as fault finding is not in the contract .

Next using what ever sample rate has been agreed (usually 10%, but 25% on the job I am currently doing) carry out some ring circuit continuity tests at random. You often won't be able to test the earth loop due to conductor identification and parallel paths, etc. - still do your best .

Reconnect everything (especially the neutral link) - re-energise and test any RCDs at the board if possible (I do 100% if I can). Do loop tests and PSCC at the DB.

Finally take as many loop readings as time permits around the whole area and carry out a detailed visual at the same time - mark the results on a floor plan if possible. I might sometimes do earth continuity tests in lieu of loop tests if appropriate.

Job done time for tea .

Regards

Geoff Blackwell
 16 June 2009 09:43 PM
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sparkingchip

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John Andrews of NAPIT suggested as a guide 45 minutes per circuit plus 45 minutes per board.

Based on that 30 circuits per day would require you to work a 22.5 hour day.

I would tend agree with John Andrews guidance, based on that a domestic property with ten circuits and one consumer unit would take 8.25 hours, that being a days work including inspecting, testing and preparing all the paperwork.To achieve thirty circuits would be three full domestic PIR's of that size a day, that would be really pushing it.

Andy

 16 June 2009 09:49 PM
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truss

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Geoff, i've been waiting a long time for this moment! A step by step PIR masterclass - i've copied & pasted your words to a document. Thank you!

Care to add to this Bod & JP?

Regards,

trussy
 16 June 2009 09:50 PM
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GeoffBlackwell

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Well I know John Andrews, I worked for NAPIT in 1998. I have completed lots of PIRs on large installations - AFAIK John Andrews hasn't.

I doubt that the OP is refering to domestic properties, industrial and commercial work is completely different.

Regards

Geoff Blackwell
 16 June 2009 09:57 PM
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flashtestdummy

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Ok im not on here long enough to know the serious poster from the banterous....

Geoff Im presuming you jest?
 16 June 2009 10:00 PM
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phillipmccavity

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Flashtestdummy - you should try doing MOD PIR's, they expect you to undertake 5+ per day, and a lovely young lady who knows what she's talking about will call at 15:30 saying 'oh hi please can you nip over to this property and undertake a PIR today please' understanding that you are due to leave site at 16:30 prompt, and she says 'oh but we have other blokes who have done it before', yeah their good chaps then, see ya luv!

I'd say the company you are working for may wish to have a re-think and put standards before financial targets, oh sorry I forgot it's all about the money! Perhaps their registered body may be interested to see some reports and EIC's, let me guess, a huge pile of satisfactory PIR's!

I personally would not work for them in a million years.
 16 June 2009 10:00 PM
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GeoffBlackwell

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No I don't.

Regards

Geoff Blackwell
 16 June 2009 10:06 PM
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sparkingchip

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yes, I can see if it is a workshop with thirty machines each supplied by a individual circuit it is a different ball game, on domestic terms it would be like doing thirty shower, cooker or immersion heater circuits. But there still has to be a mix of lighting, office sockets etc. made more difficult by great lumps of flex under desks and filing cabinets in the way.

Regards taking advice, I listen to whats said then mull it over and having spoken to John face to face several times he seems reliable! I have not had the experience of working with or for him, so as you also sound reliable I will take heed of both of you.

You have written in the plural "we conduct" and "we open", so assuming it is not the royal "we" then I take it you work as a team of at least two, so if you knock of the 48 in a day thats 24 each, so you would be below target.

Andy
 16 June 2009 10:08 PM
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perspicacious

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"Geoff Im presuming you jest?"ftdummy

I'm 100% with Geoff on this "We will start by realising that a PIR is not just an exercise in circuit testing."

How each individual takes it from here is down to their knowledge of the Regs and experience of implimenting them. Geoff is no stranger to either aspect!

Seeing 1000's of other attempted PIRs and the mess others made of them also helps

Regards

BOD
 16 June 2009 10:08 PM
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flashtestdummy

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OK Ill bite then...

25% inspection or 25% testing?

No R1+R2?

Whe you refer to testing RCDs "I do 100% if I can" do you mean if you can at the DB or do you mean overall?

Im yet to do a percentage PIR so I may sound dumb in that respect.

My last firm would do a 100% PIR on the first visit then the next year 25% and so on every year after, testing a different 25% of the DB each year
 16 June 2009 10:15 PM
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Phoenix151

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Hey, thanks for that Geoff, most interesting.

My company have got me to testing an industrial site and its a bit different from what I've tested before (more used to domestic and small commericial)

What do you issue paperwork wise, do you still issue something based on a standard PIR form, with the test results you have taken written in and the rest blank/lim, alongside a written report? or something different totally?

Oh, and what about DBs that you can't turn off... sample IR on some circuits that you can turn off?

Adam.
 16 June 2009 10:18 PM
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Ricicle

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Working in a live DB Adam, tut-tut

-------------------------
Empty barrels make the most noise.
 16 June 2009 10:18 PM
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perspicacious

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" what about DBs that you can't turn off"

Eat a few extra breakfast cereals and if you still aren't strong enough to operate the switch, I'd probably record it as failing to operate and needing attention

Regards

BOD
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