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Topic Title: notifying
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Created On: 11 November 2008 05:05 PM
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 21 November 2008 05:28 PM
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GeoffBlackwell

Posts: 3492
Joined: 18 January 2003

John
Why on earth should I want to take the 2391. I can understand why those with more recent qualification might feel they need for some specific training in Inspection and Testing, and, unfortunately for them, the 2391 seems to be all that is available. .

I did write a first draft of the NICEIC book on I & T - mind you they didn't use it - so maybe I should have taken the 2391 after all .

Regards

Geoff Blackwell

Edited: 21 November 2008 at 05:36 PM by GeoffBlackwell
 21 November 2008 06:09 PM
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OMS

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Are you suggesting that with no paperwork the installation is less safe or the installer incompetent to install and test? best not let the DNO know, they might start issuing! (stand back for the fireworks)


I think you missed the point - we were discussing PIR's where you said:

I note 621.1 requires that in the event of no previous evidence, investigation is required prior to an I&T.


I pointed out that the EIC would give you that evidence.

Maybe but if someone has paid for a PIR I will continue to do it exactly as I do. Amazing what you pick up with a Low ohm tester.


Good man - as long as you realise that there is a difference between what is required to be done and what you actually do and therefore don't criticise those that don't follow your opinion.

The fundimental difference is that you will breach EWR 4.3 if you bang test anything, and possibly damage the overcurrent devise, and possibly put unacceptable touch voltages on to metalwork. Not to mention that the arc will leave you blinded for a bit! LOL.


Which bit of "controlled conditions" didn't you understand. As for EAWR 4.3 - it contains reasonably practicable so is not absolute duty and only requires there to be no danger - see my comment on controlled conditions.

You perhaps missed the point about the RCD test - is it not just a mild form of bang testing

You again seem to wish to take a totally literal approach to my comments - we were actually debating what a PIR should consist of based on your view that it could only be undertaken by a 2391 holder under the umbrella of an approving body - I was simply using an extreme situation to point out that what you believe to be a requirement and the actual requirement are perhaps divergent.

I would say the difference is that no one qualified in their right mind does a bang test, common sence alone. Please give me a scenario where it may be done without breach of regs. But I suppose it is useful to cause a bit of a distraction with noise and darkness while you peel off that plumbers stickers from his van! LOL


Well most destructive testing labs for a start, how do you think that type tested or partially type tested assemblies are certified, how about the EHV flashover facilities for cable testing (Delta Enfield had several), then we have ERA - they've caused a few bangs in thier time - then we have injection testing at several thousands of amps or bolted short circuits on transformers to simulate full load heating effects - electrical installations dont end with houses Andrew.

What is a zealot. I thought it was a polish currency


Try Google


Maybe not, maybe it was a way to cement all that had been learnt into practical examples, remember 2391 has practical as well as theory. It does force a different way of thinking.


Rubbish - if you don't embed inspection and testing into electrical installation it will always be seen as an add on - its no big deal, wandering around with your AVO should be as instinctive as wandering around with your hand tools - we just seem to have glamourised it - see Geoff's comments above as to why it was introduced - and before you ask, yes I do have a 2391 certificate.

I know my duties,.........What a wonderful world it would be to simply do a job and be trusted to with no bloody paperwork Dream on AJ


Do you - So how do you communicate risk to the guy who comes after you then Andrew - who may not be an electrician - but who needs to know where you have buried cables for example - remember omission of RCD's for installations under effective control.

Point taken OMS. A long journey but you got there in the end eh?


Amen to that

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 21 November 2008 06:50 PM
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OMS

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I did write a first draft of the NICEIC book on I & T - mind you they didn't use it - so maybe I should have taken the 2391 after all


Did it have instruction in the use of a bell and battery Geoff - I won't mention functional testing at this point

Regards


OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 21 November 2008 06:54 PM
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GeoffBlackwell

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Originally posted by: OMS

I did write a first draft of the NICEIC book on I & T - mind you they didn't use it - so maybe I should have taken the 2391 after all


Did it have instruction in the use of a bell and battery Geoff - I won't mention functional testing at this point

Regards

OMS


Let's just say it was heavy on doing, but light on form filling - not what was wanted .

Regards

Geoff Blackwell
 21 November 2008 07:00 PM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: GeoffBlackwell

Originally posted by: OMS



I did write a first draft of the NICEIC book on I & T - mind you they didn't use it - so maybe I should have taken the 2391 after all




Did it have instruction in the use of a bell and battery Geoff - I won't mention functional testing at this point



Regards



OMS




Let's just say it was heavy on doing, but light on form filling - not what was wanted .



Regards



Geoff Blackwell


Yes, I can imagine - perhaps the origin of the recorded r1 and r2 maybe along with the rest of the stuff we seem to believe results in a safer installation.

For what its worth, design it right,install it right and don't let idiots mess about with it and it will be right for a very long time - no real need for a lot of the totally unneccesary testing after that point - as I said, a good mooch about from time to time and some basic battery/buzzer tests occasionally and all is well.


Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 21 November 2008 09:51 PM
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ajelectrical

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I think you missed the point
probably


Good man - as long as you realise that there is a difference between what is required to be done and what you actually do and therefore don't criticise those that don't follow your opinion.
I would critisise if they don't follow their proffessional training.


Which bit of "controlled conditions" didn't you understand.
Where's your sence of humour OMS? (front line labotomy ?)



You perhaps missed the point about the RCD test - is it not just a mild form of bang testing
I would say not. I accept, and am sure you would have come back with, comments on coils and emf acting on swtches or something like making a similarity. BUT if RCD fails a tiny current flows during said test. If MCB fails a tad more will continue to flow until things get a touch 'warm' and eventually break down.




Electrical installations dont end with houses Andrew.
No of course not, sadly though I have yet to be approached to blow up anything under controlled conditions, but I am very tempted to start with my laptop the way things are headed!




Rubbish
if you don't embed inspection and testing into electrical installation it will always be seen as an add on
Ok if thats the case and you are suggesting the 2360 part 1 and 2 contain all you need to know then why do so many FAIL 2391 . So much for not requiring it. Is it that specialist the 2391? NO. It is pretty basic.
Here we go again. Back to training, understanding, commitment.


I accept what you say OMS, it SHOULD be part of the course, it is, but obviously half the people who pass 1 and 2 don't listen. Cos they go on to fail 2391.



So how do you communicate risk to the guy who comes after you then Andrew
With the EIC's I issue always. And if you ask me not to be literal I suggest you take your own advise. I never said 'never any paperwork'. I did however point out that the paperwork does not affect safety of a completed install/or competence of the person doing it. Permitted Cable Routes should suffice for your latter point on info passing down.


I am not a zealot, but not far shor! LOL

-------------------------
Andrew. But I don't want you to test anything. I just want the board changing !!

Edited: 21 November 2008 at 09:53 PM by ajelectrical
 22 November 2008 11:36 AM
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nickperkins

Posts: 162
Joined: 25 July 2008

No matter what:
Qualification, mode of learning, experience, time servred, certifiates, or menbership of whichever scheme is held -

The key to competency is the ability to deliver any or all of the above in the right time and place in a manner that is safe and effective for the end user. Persons from all of the above elements have and do some right 'orrible things - Fact.

No ammount of qualification or certification will cure this. Attitude and personal responsibility are the only factors that really make the difference.

There are many and varied routes to competency.

Some of the apprentices i have encountered would have struggled to ammass 5 days of concentration in 3 years.

Get over it!
 22 November 2008 12:35 PM
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Phillron

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Live and learn
We have all had to do so in order to be in an electrical occupation
I find it uneasy accepting these quick fix entry requirements 5 day wonders etc
Hopefully the hopeless and untrained will either beat the dust or come up to scratch in good time
What I will accept, whether it is just the way of a changing world or skill economics/shortages is that the age old apprentiship route that we all may have undertaken, is now either undermined or is no loger relevant
It hurts having quick fix skills because it was taxing becoming qualified over a 5 year period then finding that the skills requirement is percieved to be much lower than that which was undertaken by me and others in my day
There is no doubt that the present training and acceptance levels are much lower than we are happy to accept but the reality is that accept them we must
It has been stated previously that Domestic installation is not exactly rocket science and I will tend to agree with that,with the added caution that the practical competence is found only after a long period of experience
Thinking back many years to my apprentice days The electrical theory of Domestic electrics was probably covered in a couple of days over the 5 year period
An electrician was trained in a wide field of maintenance fault finding and installation
Is this needed or relevant today maybe no longer
A Domestic installer The title still amuses me because it belittles what I percieved was an electrician
The sore point about our industry in my estimation is the lack of direction within the industry about skill standards Safety requirements
There seems to be no direction with regard to skill requirements whether needed or not in Domestic work
The householder can do this or that The defined scope plunmber can do this or that The registered can do all
The non registered can do all as long as
The householder can do all as long as
Surely in this mish mash of a world that is Domestic installation, it is time to reopen the whole of this sector to anybody who feels capable, because the present system defies reason
Open up the actual installing to all and sundry,because to all intents and purposes that is currently what is happening, albeit illegally, but who cares anyway
Clamp down on the certification of those installs by restricting the certification to those with the demonstrated skill levels Make the PIR the basis for safety assessments without the blame culture if something was overlooked or mistaken The enrolment on to a certification body being the yardstick and the discipline for standards
Take away this nonsense of adopting the installation because you happened to work on it or change a consumer unit or such
Tie certification into insurance policies much more tightly and get rid of all the previous regulation that has been a shambles
Get back to common sense ways
 22 November 2008 02:47 PM
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normcall

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Joined: 15 January 2005

"There is no doubt that the present training and acceptance levels are much lower than we are happy to accept but the reality is that accept them we must "
Why?

"Get back to common sense ways"

Exactly!

I was listening to Any Questions earlier and the one thing that was not blamed for the current economic situation was the banks greed in accepting/paying for worthless 'bonds' to use to 'support' lending to others to make money even though the assets being used as security where less than the value.
It all was a pack of cards just waiting to fall.

It seems only a few years ago when the only credit 'the man in the street' could get was hire purchase. Then the money men got involved. Just like the current electrical industry. I bet there are almost as many 'employed' in teaching or running 'education' courses as actually doing real work. From reading some posts, the quality leaves a lot to be desired.
Pity I ain't qualified!

-------------------------
Norman
 22 November 2008 05:42 PM
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nickperkins

Posts: 162
Joined: 25 July 2008

Normcall,

Here here(men in suits)

You are, i am sure, as qualified as anyone to do the work you do. In a word "competent"

Nick
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