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Topic Title: BS7671 or BS7909
Topic Summary: Entertainment industry
Created On: 22 March 2008 10:35 AM
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 22 March 2008 10:35 AM
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bakey1959

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I would like to hear comments from others who may have or may be currently considering the relationship between BS7671:2008 and BS7909 (currently being revised). I would like to be able to make recommendations to a number of electricians involved in the entertainment industry, but first need to satisfy myself that any recommendations are likely to be accepted practice.

BS7671:2008 and BS7909:2008 and the entertainment industry

Now that the BSI/IET 17th Edition of the wiring regulations (BS7671:2008) is published it might be useful to consider how it may affect what and how we do things in the entertainment industry.

Firstly the general SCOPE of BS7671:2008 now includes in Regulation 110.1 (viii) construction sites, exhibitions, shows, fairgrounds and other installations for temporary purposes including professional stage and broadcast applications."

Further on in the Regulation it states that:
"The Regulations are intended to be applied to electrical installations generally but, in certain cases, they may need to be supplemented by the requirements or recommendations of other British Standards...Such cases include the following: (xxix) Design and installation of temporary distribution systems delivering a.c. electrical supplies for lighting technical services and other entertainment related purposes-BS 7909."
(BS7671:2008, p.12)

Yet in the expanded Part 7 of BS7671:2008 (SPECIAL INSTALLATIONS OR LOCATIONS) there is no specific SECTION for entertainment related installations. The most closely related is SECTION 711 (EXHIBITION, SHOWS AND STANDS), BUT IN THE SCOPE OF THIS SECTION IT STATES THAT "This section does not apply to electrical systems as defined in BS7909 used in structures, sets, mobile units etc as used for public or private events, touring shows, theatrical, radio, TV or film productions and similar activities of the entertainment industry."

Clearly for some time the entertainment & production industry have opted to follow a code of practice that better suits their needs and established methods of working (BS7909 introduced in 1998, developed from the original BS5550, introduced in the 1980's). However, BS7909 which is currently being updated and up for public consultation, will surely bring it closer to BS7671 and provide more detailed guidance for things like large events with multiple installations, provision for bonding temporary structures and fixed structures in a common electrical environment and much more.

So where does this leave us from the 1st July 2008?

Electrical installations designed after 30th June 2008 are to comply with BS7671:2008. Firstly I believe that, as part of a risk assessment and method statement process for a particular job the installation, or parts thereof, will need to be defined in reference to its use according to either BS7671 or BS7909 as relevant. In other words if a particular requirement is not covered in BS7909 then reference to BS7671 including Section 711 will be necessary.

Secondly, it is my interpretation that if the installation, or part thereof, primarily forms a fixed or static display for use or occupation by non technical people then BS7671 Section 711 should be used in the first instance and not BS7909. So a display with a few lights ,AV equipment in the loby of a theatre would be classified as an exhibition stand in accordance with BS7671:2008 Section 711.

Thirdly, with respect to inspection and testing, Section 711.6 BS7161:2008 requires "The temporary electrical installations of exhibitions, shows and stands shall be inspected and tested on site in accordance with Chapter 61 after each assembly on site."
The new BS7909 will almost certainly divide things between simple activities (using up to around 6kW of power) and complex activities. BS7909 is written for kits of pre-tested and inspected modules joined using appropriate plug and socket devices. This is a clear distinction in construction and assembly methodology.
If there are electrical connections (including bonding) made on assembly by means other than plug and socket a decision should be made to test and inspect regardless of the British Standard being followed.
 22 March 2008 03:52 PM
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bakey1959

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I know it's rather lengthy, but I would appreciate some commentary.
 23 March 2008 09:32 AM
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bakey1959

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Anybody able to comment Or is there a more appropriate forum for this question?
 23 March 2008 10:01 AM
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TeesdaleSpark

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I don't think many people have heard of BS7909. I hadn't unitl last night when I was sad enough to down load it and have a quick look through.

I can't see there been a great deal of conflict between the standard and code of practice. I don't have any idea what is going to be in the revised code of practice.
 23 March 2008 10:32 AM
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paul2008

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bakey1959

This is a good one,Got us all thinking?
Should be quite intresting to see what comes up
for this topic,must admit have not heard of BS7909 up until now.
 23 March 2008 08:39 PM
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paul2008

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News about the revision of BS 7909
Code of practice for Design and installation of temporary distributions systems delivering ac electrical supplies for lighting, technical services and other related entertainment purposes

The revision of BS 7909 1998 is soon to be available as a Draft for Public Comment (DPC). It is a major revision and contains a significant number of changes. DPC BS 7909 : 2008 has a simpler title, which is:

Code of practice for temporary electrical distributions for entertainment and related purposes

Some examples of areas where changes have been made include:
. An increase in the range of events that use temporary electrical distributions;
. Recognition of the considerable quantity and range of electrical equipment and related staff that are hired in for an event;
. The management of temporary electrical distributions;
. Temporary electrical distributions have been split into 'small/simple' or 'large/complex', and are treated separately;
. The requirements and terminology of BS 7671 : 2008 (IEE Wiring Regulations 17th Edition) have been adopted where appropriate;
. The annexes have been revised and new annex have been added.

The availability DPC BS 7909 : 2008 will be announced in BSi publication Update Standards dated April 2008, under 'Draft Standards for Public Comment'. Update Standard is available as hard copy only, but could be obtained from BSi Customer Services 020 8996 9001.

It is hoped that towards the end of March 2008 the DPC BS 7909 will be shown as available for comment on the BSi website the URL for which is

http://www.bsigroup.com/en/Sta...nd-P...rent-work/DPCs/
 24 March 2008 11:47 AM
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gkenyon

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Couple of points for a start:

The first thing I must say, is that currently BS7909 allows "Socapex" outlets to be used - these are effectively now BANNED by BS7671: 2008. (If you read very carefully, underfloor busbar system also banned - it's only Lighting Track and socket outlets provided for safety purposes that are given the exceptions egainst having to be one of a rigid list of outlets.

AND TO PROHIBIT EN60309-2 OUTLETS IN DOMESTIC PREMISES IS, I BELIEVE, FOLLY, BECAUSE THEY ARE FAR BETTER FOR GARDEN OUTLETS THAN BS1363

The second thing is to determine what level of supervision the installation will be under, because really most of the cabling used presently will require 30 mA RCD protection under BS7671: 2008. (Hmmm - how do we do this where circuits have high protective conductor currents and flexible cords ??? Affects Information Technology installaions, but we could consider many of these to be "managed installations", so less of a problem).


If I can get hold of a copy of the DPC you point out, I'd be glad to help out.

-------------------------
Eur Ing Graham Kenyon CEng MIET TechIOSH

Edited: 24 March 2008 at 11:50 AM by gkenyon
 24 March 2008 11:55 AM
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John Peckham

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Graham

I don't think the 17th bans 60309-2 in domestic premises. It does say shuttered types to BS1363 are prefered in 553.1.3.

Have you found another reference?

John Peckham

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 24 March 2008 12:25 PM
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bakey1959

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Originally posted by: gkenyon
The first thing I must say, is that currently BS7909 allows "Socapex" outlets to be used - these are effectively now BANNED by BS7671: 2008.


Hi Graham

As Socapex cable and connectors are somewhat of a standard for the entertainment industry, can you advise me of the Section/ Regulation of BS7671:2008 that effectively bans their use.


(If I can get hold of a copy of the DPC you point out, I'd be glad to help out.

That would be most useful, as until now I have not been able to locate it.

Thanks
 25 March 2008 08:05 AM
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gkenyon

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Originally posted by: bakey1959
As Socapex cable and connectors are somewhat of a standard for the entertainment industry, can you advise me of the Section/ Regulation of BS7671:2008 that effectively bans their use.
Yes, I understand that it's a big problem for the ents industry, and submitted a comment along these lines on the DPC for the 17th Edition, quoting BS7909.

It's Regulations under 553.1 "Plugs and socket outlets". (in particular, see 553.1.3 and 553.1.5.

My comment recommended that 553.1.3 was changed to something like ". . . in a low voltage circuit, every plug and socket outlet for use by ordinary persons shall conform . . ."

If anyone on the relevant sub-committee could tell us why this comment was not addressed, I'd be very grateful, as it affects a lot more than stage lighting.

(With the definition of "Socket Outlet" on p. 29 of BS7671: 2008, only "luminaire track system" is not regarded as containing "socket outlets" - but even underfloor power track, used in offices etc., is not exempt and therefore becomes non-conformant !!!

(See also definitions of "Plug" and "Powertrack" on p 27 of BS7671: 2008 - makes it quite clear that underfloor busbar with integral socket outlets is now Non-Conformant unless it's for lighting !!).

-------------------------
Eur Ing Graham Kenyon CEng MIET TechIOSH
 25 March 2008 10:26 AM
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gkenyon

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I can't see a "draft in progress" in the information for BS7909 - see http://www.bsi-global.com/en/S...pid=000000000001504974


In addition, seems that the committee that made the standard was disbanded.


Well, that's the summary of what I can find from the BSI web-site.


Any other offers ???

-------------------------
Eur Ing Graham Kenyon CEng MIET TechIOSH
 25 March 2008 04:04 PM
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bakey1959

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Just wondering if 553.2.1 (and the extended range of BS/ BS ENs) applies to much of the kit that is used for temporary supplies in the entertainment industry?
 25 March 2008 08:21 PM
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bakey1959

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Originally posted by: bakey1959

Originally posted by: gkenyon

The first thing I must say, is that currently BS7909 allows "Socapex" outlets to be used - these are effectively now BANNED by BS7671: 2008.


Thanks


Talking to a guy who works for Stage Electrics (massive in the entertainment electrical industry) and he says it can't possibly happen, as the industry is too committed to Socapex
 26 March 2008 08:49 AM
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gkenyon

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Originally posted by: bakey1959

Just wondering if 553.2.1 (and the extended range of BS/ BS ENs) applies to much of the kit that is used for temporary supplies in the entertainment industry?
Yes, I believe it would.

-------------------------
Eur Ing Graham Kenyon CEng MIET TechIOSH
 26 March 2008 08:51 AM
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gkenyon

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Originally posted by: bakey1959
Talking to a guy who works for Stage Electrics (massive in the entertainment electrical industry) and he says it can't possibly happen, as the industry is too committed to Socapex
I understand that (I used to work in the industry), which is why I submitted the original comment to the Wiring Regs Committee on the Draft.

I don't know why it's been ignored. If I did, I could help.

-------------------------
Eur Ing Graham Kenyon CEng MIET TechIOSH
 27 March 2008 09:28 PM
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StewartNewlands

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The 7909 draft should now be available, please contact BSI Customer Services on +44 (0)20 8996 9001 or email cservices@bsigroup.com with the title and DPC number of the draft you require

BS7909:2008 Code of practice for temporary electrical systems for entertainment and related purposes

08/30166535DC

BSI charge £20.00 for the draft

The new draft is four times the size of the old version and has had input from IET staff, HSE, STLD, ABTT, NOEA, PLASA etc.

Please read the draft as it should help, the intention is to end the comment period at the end of May and process them in June so a new 7909 is ready for 1st July.

This is an ambitious schedule.

I notice some of the OPs first offering is an extract from my post on www.blue-room.org.uk on 6th Feb 2008

The draft 7909 deals with it's relationship with 7671 throughout.

Hope this helps
Stewart - NOEA rep 7909.

Edited: 27 March 2008 at 09:54 PM by StewartNewlands
 27 March 2008 11:03 PM
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AJJewsbury

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The first thing I must say, is that currently BS7909 allows "Socapex" outlets to be used - these are effectively now BANNED by BS7671: 2008.


It's Regulations under 553.1 "Plugs and socket outlets". (in particular, see 553.1.3 and 553.1.5.


Just checking my understanding ... aren't these unchanged from the 16th Ed 533-01-03 et al? A continuing problem, rather than a new one?

Could the ents industry invoke the last paragraph of 120.3 (and/or 133.1.3) and just mark it down as a departure on the EIC?

- Andy.
 27 March 2008 11:04 PM
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AJJewsbury

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BSI charge £20.00 for the draft

Will it be available as a free download in a few weeks ... like DPC BS 7671 was?

- Andy.
 28 March 2008 06:03 PM
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StewartNewlands

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This is a direct link to buy the 7909:2008 Draft at BSI bookshop

http://www.bsigroup.com/en/Sho...atio...000000030166535
 07 April 2008 12:07 PM
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LuxSparks

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Whilst on the subject of Socapex it would be nice to see all shells connected to earth many supplied or hired in are not.
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