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Topic Title: Off peak installations
Topic Summary: How to use a system with radio teleswitch controlled metering
Created On: 21 November 2007 08:00 PM
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 21 November 2007 08:00 PM
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HarryJMacdonald

Posts: 254
Joined: 15 May 2002

I have recently bought a first floor flat in a block where all the meters are installed in a cupboard on the ground floor. The flats are about 5 years old.

In the meter cupboard are a meter per flat each with a radio teleswitch above labeled "Group code 57".

Heating in the flat is by simple electric radiators and I want to replace with night storage for obvious reasons.

I can see no sign of a contactor or second supply to the flat.

1) Is there a guaranteed time of night the a Group Code will be switched to night tarrif and how do I find it?

2) Is there a way of controlling the heaters, which avoids running a new cable or control signal up through the communal area.

Thanks,
Harry
 21 November 2007 08:41 PM
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alancapon

Posts: 5745
Joined: 27 December 2005

Your electrcity supplier should be able to tell you the usual hours that off-peak is available under "group code 57". If I remember correctly, it will be seven hours of electricity, but not necessarily seven continuous hours. The idea is that not all storage heaters will come on together. Under certain system conditions the off-peak supply can be suspended by radio command.


Regards,

Alan.
 22 November 2007 08:32 AM
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Jaymack

Posts: 4583
Joined: 07 April 2004

Originally posted by: HarryJMacdonald

Heating in the flat is by simple electric radiators and I want to replace with night storage for obvious reasons.


The difference as I see it, would be that the storage heaters have their own heat sink, but are bulkier; the radiators would use the building fabric as this sink, (as do the storage types to a lesser extent) - are they radiant/convector types? Heat storage systems are designed for background heat; and require topping up with sharp drops in outside temperatures. I would question whether you would gain any advantage, unless you increase the total heat loading; which you could do with electric heaters anyway.
How well the flat is insulated would have a bearing, since presumably the
storage heaters may or may not be more efficient. If you go with the storage heaters, I would attempt to measure the flat ambient; and outside temperatures on both systems for a comparison.
There was an electricity council many years ago, who gave advice on their heating systems, I have returned recently to the UK so I have lost touch in this regard.
Jaymack
 22 November 2007 08:53 AM
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normcall

Posts: 8111
Joined: 15 January 2005

Believe me, the change to NSH from direct heaters is well worth it.
Many years ago I installed the 'Dimplex Tri-plan' heating system in my place and having come from a gas/radiator heated house, the costs where a bit of a shock.
However, remember my wife does like heating 24/7!!

We were offered a load of NSH from my dad , having installed them about 5 years before as he was going the gas/radiator route.
Stuck them in and the best decision I made.
However, the odd drop/rise in temperature can catch them out, but as we have a nice coal fire as well, it doesn't matter. Also remember my heaters are now some 20 years old, no maintenance and no failures and didn't cost a penny to buy (Dad just wanted shot of them!)

-------------------------
Norman
 28 November 2007 09:50 PM
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HarryJMacdonald

Posts: 254
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No one got any advice as to how to control the heaters? Time clock or second radio teleswitch, given that it is not practical to run a signal cable from the location of the meter to the Consumer Unit. I am concerned that the reason for changing meters from time clock control to radio teleswitch was to allow the supplier to alter the times of cheap rate.
 28 November 2007 10:01 PM
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pdennis

Posts: 442
Joined: 04 March 2005

Don't know how these things work in general, but I can comment on how our night storage heaters are controlled. There is a second output from the meter which is switched automatically by the supply company, this is recorded as a separate count by the meter. We are charged very different rates for this off peak supply for feeding the heaters compared to the normal day rate, it is even less than the night time rate that we have (there are actually three readings). So, we have two separate outputs from the meter (in our case supplying two CUs). Don't know if this helps.

-------------------------
Paul Dennis MEng MIEE MBCS
 28 November 2007 10:07 PM
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Memorex47

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Group code 57 times are 22.30 - 00.30 and 02.30 - 07.30

Regards
 28 November 2007 10:13 PM
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Memorex47

Posts: 4
Joined: 28 November 2007

Do the flats have 2 CU's
If they do you can connect to the load side of the teleswitch which will turn on the heaters at off peak times.
If only one CU fitted, you will need to install a second CU and run new cables to meter and teleswitch.
 29 November 2007 10:19 PM
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siphilips

Posts: 112
Joined: 30 December 2006

hi all

just a point on radio teleswithes

the dno doesnt switch them over to the seconf rate

inside them is a reciever (tuned to radio 4 co-inceidently)
which switches over at 00:30 and of @ 7:30

i work for united utilites, and what we do now it install new digital two rate or three if necessary for the customers needs.

this new digital meter does away with the old meter and time switch
and has a lithium battery backed up time and date (set in factory)
to automatically switch over

hope this helps

Simon
 29 November 2007 10:44 PM
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alancapon

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The Radio Teleswitch network is administered by the Energy Networks Association on behalf of the various DNOs. The devices hold the switching progams to change tariffs, which can be updated by means of a centralised radio broadcast. A number of different "group codes" are allocated to each DNO, which allows for the switching of electric storage heating across the country / areas to be automatically staggered, leading to a more even load profile on the power network. The devices provide for 7 hours of off-peak electricity per night, although not necessarily 7 continuous hours.

Under certain system conditions, the cheap rate can be suspended by the DNOs, leading to the disconnection of the heating load by immediate radio command.


Regards,

Alan.

Edit: spelling!

Edited: 29 November 2007 at 11:07 PM by alancapon
 29 November 2007 11:09 PM
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siphilips

Posts: 112
Joined: 30 December 2006

alan you are talking sh*t

1. radio teleswitches are now extinct

2.teleswitches do not "hold programs" at all. they just "switch"
a milti-rate meter, hence the name "time-switch"


3. there are over 40 tariffs of off peak power for consumers, its nothing to do with "even loads", transmission of power have other procedures on this, i will tell myou more about on request....


Under certain system conditions, the cheap rate can be suspended by the DNOs, leading to the disconnection of the heating load by immediate radio command.


WRONG!!!

a teleswitch is controlled by BBC radio 4 NOT DNOS and they cannot "switch" teleswithces on or off

remote / or smart metering to which you refer is done by SIM technology which has nothing to do with teleswithces

chinese whispers / urban legends leads to misconceptions


references


national grid

ampy meters

actaris metering

bbc radion 4

actaris meters

elster metering
 29 November 2007 11:18 PM
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alancapon

Posts: 5745
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Originally posted by: siphilips
alan you are talking sh*t


Not me - check your facts before making accusations like that. New updated system software due to be commissioned in January 2008.

Reference: Radio Teleswitching


Regards,

Alan.
 30 November 2007 12:21 AM
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siphilips

Posts: 112
Joined: 30 December 2006

have done

and you're still wrong!!!

a very smug

simon

ps i install them mate, i have a van full of them!!
 30 November 2007 12:29 AM
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siphilips

Posts: 112
Joined: 30 December 2006

you quote

Current Status of Radio Teleswitch Service

The system has continued to operate satisfactorily and has enabled user companies to provide added value to their customers.

However, the Central Teleswitch Control Unit (CTCU) requires updating and ENA have let a contract for this work to be carried out.

The new system is expected to be commissioned in early January, 2008.


yes new software but what im saying is in the world of DNO metering UU MANWEB, they are extinct and are being ripped out and replaced by modern smaller more compact single meters as oppesed to wo big black bulky bakerlite monstosities which take up half the meter board to install

i bid you good nite zzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzz
 30 November 2007 10:43 AM
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HarryJMacdonald

Posts: 254
Joined: 15 May 2002

Sorry to initiate such agro!

If radio teleswitches really are virtually guaranteed all I need is a timeswitch and contactor to controll a separate CU. but I though the idea of them was to allow flexibility. The quesion is how often, if ever, do the suppliers take advantage of this.

I also have two versions of the time for Group code 57. EdF say

"The hours they operate on are as follows: -

10:30-12:30pm and then 2:30-7:30am.

Hope this helps."
Memorex above says:

"Group code 57 times are 22.30 - 00.30 and 02.30 - 07.30"

Perhaps I need to give the meter a good dose of looking at!

Thanks to all.
 30 November 2007 01:55 PM
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JackTLadd

Posts: 24
Joined: 26 October 2007

Neatly side-stepping the Alan - Simon war...the timing of off-peak installations can be a bit irregular as Alan suggests. I have 'Domestic Economy' which supposedly offers eight hours of economy supply, 24.00 - 08.00 in the Summer and 23.30 - 07.30 in the Winter. My supply is currently switching from economy to daytime rate at 08.10??? not sure when it switches at night, I don't have the patience to sit by the meter in the late evening waiting for the click

-------------------------

I can explain..it's not my fault!
 30 November 2007 02:10 PM
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pdennis

Posts: 442
Joined: 04 March 2005

Originally posted by: JackTLadd
I don't have the patience to sit by the meter in the late evening waiting for the click


We get 8 hours between 11pm and 8am, then also a couple of extra hours in the afternoon. I know when ours switches as the 50amp extra load that suddenly kicks in is plenty to make the lights dim slightly!

-------------------------
Paul Dennis MEng MIEE MBCS
 30 November 2007 04:46 PM
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normcall

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Joined: 15 January 2005

"I also have two versions of the time for Group code 57. EdF say

"The hours they operate on are as follows: -

10:30-12:30pm and then 2:30-7:30am.

Hope this helps."
Memorex above says:

"Group code 57 times are 22.30 - 00.30 and 02.30 - 07.30"

I'm in thicko mode today as aren't these the same?

-------------------------
Norman
 30 November 2007 11:34 PM
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siphilips

Posts: 112
Joined: 30 December 2006

off peak times can and do vary

there are currently over 50 tariffs of electricity
available to single phase customers

lets not even get started on three phase

in this day and age of central heating systems people are not tending to drop the multi-rate tariff and go the single rate and its cheaper per KwH

just ask your suppler to do this for you

same with credit to pre-payment and vice versa.....
 01 December 2007 01:48 AM
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Dho

Posts: 2
Joined: 01 December 2007

Hi,

Just had a 2 rate meter and one of these Radio Teleswitch Series 3 (Horstmann)switch installed for my Economy 7. The guy installing it told me that it sends a radio message back everytime the rate changes on the meter. That doesn't sound right to me. I thought it only recieve radio messages and then set itself to the correct rate. I can see the need for sending messages back if the meter does clever things like autobilling but surely not on bog standard Economy 7!

Can anyone clarify this?

Thanks,

David.
IET » Wiring and the regulations » Off peak installations

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