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Topic Title: Text message to builder
Topic Summary: Fault on cooker circuit
Created On: 10 November 2017 07:41 PM
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 10 November 2017 07:41 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 10100
Joined: 18 January 2003

When I was standing at the fuse board in the garage I could see the cable running along the ceiling joist then onto the wall plate heading towards the kitchen. I now know it drops down the wall , doubles back at floor level before going out through the wall and being buried in the garden. It is an absolute disgrace the kitchen fitters should be ashamed of themselves. It needs a temporary supply to replace the buried section. Andy
 10 November 2017 07:45 PM
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sparkingchip

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Reply :
I know that
R u able to put that in as they got no cooker
& thanks for going round again
 10 November 2017 07:46 PM
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sparkingchip

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My reply :
Why didn't you tell me the cooker circuit cable is buried in the garden? I did just assumed it carried on around the garage to the kitchen as would any other electrician, why would I be looking to see if a twin and earth cooker cable is buried in a garden?
 10 November 2017 07:55 PM
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sparkingchip

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The builder called me as the cooker was tripping the circuit breaker, I had a look at the cooker and and the consumer unit in the garage, then said it was almost certainly a fault on the cooker. The appliance repair guy replaced a faulty oven element, but it tripped again. So I went back and followed the cable along its route from the garage to the kitchen to find the 6 mm twin and earth cable is buried in the garden around the conservatory.

Never make any assumptions !

Andy

Edited: 10 November 2017 at 08:10 PM by sparkingchip
 10 November 2017 08:11 PM
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dustydazzler

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I have seen similar on a few occasions when kitchens or bathrooms have been refitted.
Most recently a 6mm cable taken from the consumer unit straight down under the floating floor in the cupboard out through the near by air brick (nice smashed hole) , through several flowerbeds and bushes and then back in through another airbrick in the kitchen and up to a brand new Aga.
The house had recently been fitted out with solid wood flooring so the kitchen guy took the easy route straight outside.
I only came across it as I was there to do some gardening.
I must admit getting from the consumer unit position to the new kitchen would have been a right ball ache.
So I did kind of admire the cable routing.
Customer was probably singing the fitters praises as he didn't ruin any decor in the house

Edited: 10 November 2017 at 08:24 PM by dustydazzler
 10 November 2017 09:08 PM
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sparkingchip

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Some years ago I found a 6 mm twin and earth cable that was buried in a flower bed, it was connected into the meter tails, protected only by the suppliers 100 amp fuse and supplied a consumer unit for a dedicated hifi socket circuit without RCD protection. It was installed to avoid loss of sound quality.

Nothing should surprise me really.

Andy B.
 10 November 2017 10:52 PM
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MHRestorations

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That routing would actually seem reasonable, if done in a suitable system (NOT T&E!)

SWA or MICC (depending on soil conditions) or singles in conduit... to me, would be fine
 10 November 2017 11:19 PM
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mapj1

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I was thinking the same, it is less that the route is poor, though it sounds like it may be, its more the fact that T and E and garden forks don't mix .

It would have been fractionally better if it went round the outside of the house at high level, so it was more obvious and so less likely to be damaged. Equally I have seen several garages and summer houses supplied by buried T and E in random containment such as blue water pipe or bathroom waste. To be honest while I agree its the wrong thing, under a concrete path or similar, the risk is low and it will probably work fine for decades, but T and E is really completely unsuitable for direct burial.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 11 November 2017 12:13 AM
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sparkingchip

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This was done instead of rolling a bedroom carpet back and lifting a section of flooring to install two metres of cable, obviously burying nine metres of cable at a depth of 100 millimetres in the garden is a much better solution.

The customer thought it was an acceptable job.

The cooker is going in a few weeks, as a new kitchen extension is being built with new appliances, so only a temporary fix is required.
 11 November 2017 12:16 AM
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sparkingchip

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Originally posted by: mapj1

I was thinking the same, it is less that the route is poor, though it sounds like it may be, its more the fact that T and E and garden forks don't mix .



It would have been fractionally better if it went round the outside of the house at high level, so it was more obvious and so less likely to be damaged. Equally I have seen several garages and summer houses supplied by buried T and E in random containment such as blue water pipe or bathroom waste. To be honest while I agree its the wrong thing, under a concrete path or similar, the risk is low and it will probably work fine for decades, but T and E is really completely unsuitable for direct burial.


T&E in a water filled duct?
 11 November 2017 12:17 AM
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sparkingchip

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Originally posted by: MHRestorations

That routing would actually seem reasonable, if done in a suitable system (NOT T&E!)



SWA or MICC (depending on soil conditions) or singles in conduit... to me, would be fine


Beyond the skills set of the kitchen fitters?
 11 November 2017 12:36 AM
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sparkingchip

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Originally posted by: sparkingchip

Originally posted by: mapj1



I was thinking the same, it is less that the route is poor, though it sounds like it may be, its more the fact that T and E and garden forks don't mix .







It would have been fractionally better if it went round the outside of the house at high level, so it was more obvious and so less likely to be damaged. Equally I have seen several garages and summer houses supplied by buried T and E in random containment such as blue water pipe or bathroom waste. To be honest while I agree its the wrong thing, under a concrete path or similar, the risk is low and it will probably work fine for decades, but T and E is really completely unsuitable for direct burial.




T&E in a water filled duct?


http://www.theiet.org/forums/f...tid=205&threadid=13991
 11 November 2017 08:12 AM
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dustydazzler

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I have no issue with twin and earth being outside , for example clipped up high say just below the soffit, to supply power to a security light.
But to sling a soft cable like flex or twin 6 or 7 metres long through the shrubs and flowers beds barely covered by 2 inches of top soil is BADgers.
That said , we have all seen it and will continue to see at least a few times a year.
In most cases it's the 'easy' cable route to simply throw the cable outside in the bushes thus avoiding lifting floors or ruining internal decor.
I might try it next time
 11 November 2017 10:22 AM
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mapj1

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Well, a water filled duct will probably allow you to push the current ratings a bit, say occasional flights of 40A on 2.5mm perhaps.....
The manufacturing acceptance tests for domestic T and E involve immersion in salty water for many hours while energising, and it is certainly OK to get it wet and run it outside kept out if the sun, which is most of the UK as far as I can tell.. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying T and E buried in some sort of mechanical protection is great idea, quite the reverse, its totally the wrong thing, but it will probably last the warranty period. On the awful hack scale, it is one up on an extension lead across the lawn, but a long way from a professional solution, which would normally involve SWA..
In terms of bare T and E in the flower bed however, if someone has paid full rate for that as a proper job, they probably should be making noises asking about money back. If they asked and paid for 'quick and dirty temporary effort' they got exactly that.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 11 November 2017 10:46 AM
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dustydazzler

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Originally posted by: mapj1

Well, a water filled duct will probably allow you to push the current ratings a bit, say occasional flights of 40A on 2.5mm perhaps..... [IMG][/IMG]

The manufacturing acceptance tests for domestic T and E involve immersion in salty water for many hours while energising, and it is certainly OK to get it wet and run it outside kept out if the sun, which is most of the UK as far as I can tell.. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying T and E buried in some sort of mechanical protection is great idea, quite the reverse, its totally the wrong thing, but it will probably last the warranty period. On the awful hack scale, it is one up on an extension lead across the lawn, but a long way from a professional solution, which would normally involve SWA..

In terms of bare T and E in the flower bed however, if someone has paid full rate for that as a proper job, they probably should be making noises asking about money back. If they asked and paid for 'quick and dirty temporary effort' they got exactly that.


I think this is the crux , if the customer has paid peanuts for a nasty lashed in 'temp wiring job' then fair enough. They got what they paid for. But more often than not when you speak to the customers they have paid top dollar to the electrician.
I have been specifically asked on occasion to lash in a temp supply to a marquee for a garden party which will only be in for a few days.
So little point in the customer spending £500 running in a permanent supply , so I opt for arctic cable in flexible duct run down the fence line through the shrubs and beds etc.
But I ensure I go back to remove it all as it's certainly not a permanent installation to be left there.
But Twin and earth run round outside through shrubs and boarders to avoid doing the job internally is a bit rough , even by my standards
 11 November 2017 08:14 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 10100
Joined: 18 January 2003

Originally posted by: mapj1

Well, a water filled duct will probably allow you to push the current ratings a bit, say occasional flights of 40A on 2.5mm perhaps.....

The manufacturing acceptance tests for domestic T and E involve immersion in salty water for many hours while energising, and it is certainly OK to get it wet and run it outside kept out if the sun, which is most of the UK as far as I can tell.. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying T and E buried in some sort of mechanical protection is great idea, quite the reverse, its totally the wrong thing, but it will probably last the warranty period. On the awful hack scale, it is one up on an extension lead across the lawn, but a long way from a professional solution, which would normally involve SWA..

In terms of bare T and E in the flower bed however, if someone has paid full rate for that as a proper job, they probably should be making noises asking about money back. If they asked and paid for 'quick and dirty temporary effort' they got exactly that.


When I went to college I was taught that "electricians don't do temporary".

So it's BS7671, BS7909 or nothing.

Andy B.
 11 November 2017 10:08 PM
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mapj1

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BS7909 often is not much more than extension leads over the lawn, but it is in the right sort of cable usually HOR rubber, occasionally SY, and supplied by an RCD, and with proper IP rated plugs and sockets at the joins. If you ever help out with a theatre or a festival, you will see temporary wiring alright, but hopefully done properly. Equally I've heard stage sparks commenting somewhat wryly that the normal building sparks way is not compatible with stage wiring.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 11 November 2017 10:47 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 10100
Joined: 18 January 2003

Originally posted by: mapj1

BS7909 often is not much more than extension leads over the lawn, but it is in the right sort of cable usually HOR rubber, occasionally SY, and supplied by an RCD, and with proper IP rated plugs and sockets at the joins. If you ever help out with a theatre or a festival, you will see temporary wiring alright, but hopefully done properly. Equally I've heard stage sparks commenting somewhat wryly that the normal building sparks way is not compatible with stage wiring.



I recently attended a pep talk on BS7909 by the man who wrote the book to encourage me to go on the training course.

Have a look at this.

Extension leads not plugged in correctly?

Andy B.
 12 November 2017 08:29 AM
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Zoomup

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B.S. 7671. Reg. 120.1 "This standard contains the rules for the design and erection of electrical installations so as to provide for safe and proper functioning for the intended use". Safe and proper eh?

Z.
 12 November 2017 02:30 PM
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Fm

Posts: 1733
Joined: 24 August 2011

Temporary doesn't mean to a lesser standard
IET » Wiring and the regulations » Text message to builder

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