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Topic Title: 1st and 2nd Fix Times
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Created On: 07 November 2017 10:09 AM
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 07 November 2017 10:09 AM
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JackC20

Posts: 2
Joined: 06 November 2017

Hi everyone, this is a question for any house bashers/domestic installers out there. Do you have a rough formula on how long a 2nd fix should take based on the first fix? I'm currently working in houses that took me a day and a half to 1st fix and 2 days plus a few hours to 2nd fix. I know it depends on a lot of variables but just curious. I've always known I was a little slow as I'm very particular and luckily I've never been made to work on price. I do have a tendency of over thinking things so just trying to put myself at ease haha.

Thanks for any replies.
 07 November 2017 10:55 AM
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davezawadi

Posts: 3907
Joined: 26 June 2002

Hi Jack.

Your second fix does seem a bit slow, how long does it take you to do the CU on average? About 5 minutes per accessory is probably about right plus a couple hours for the testing of everything. So perhaps 1/2 hour per room on average unless it has loads of sockets, or AV etc. If you have to fiddle with things much longer than that you need to consider how you first fix and the design you use. For example any spurs on a new install take time which you don't need to spend at the cost of a little extra cable. Low voltage downlights and other fiddly things do take extra time, which you should include in the fixture price to the client.

Regards

-------------------------
David
BSc CEng MIET
david@ZawadiSoundAndLighting.co.uk
 07 November 2017 11:07 AM
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Legh

Posts: 4045
Joined: 17 December 2004

"About 5 minutes per accessory is probably about right"

Lol ......... No wonder I don't get much work ! ---- I take 12 - 20 minutes per accessory, depending on my orientation when fixing....

Legh

-------------------------

http://www.leghrichardson.co.uk

de-avatared
 07 November 2017 11:21 AM
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davezawadi

Posts: 3907
Joined: 26 June 2002

Why is that Leigh? You only have to strip the wires (1 min with the right tools) poke the wires in the terminals and screw up (1 min each) Screw on the faceplate (1 min). I make that near enough 5 minutes. It is true that a ceiling rose can be difficult some times but the correct glasses help!

Regards

-------------------------
David
BSc CEng MIET
david@ZawadiSoundAndLighting.co.uk
 07 November 2017 12:12 PM
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Blencathra

Posts: 16
Joined: 07 November 2017

Originally posted by: Legh

"About 5 minutes per accessory is probably about right"



Lol ......... No wonder I don't get much work ! ---- I take 12 - 20 minutes per accessory, depending on my orientation when fixing....



Legh

Thats probably my workrate, slow and steady wins the race
 07 November 2017 12:30 PM
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WiredScience

Posts: 321
Joined: 25 January 2012

How long to get the tools out the van (and back at the end of the day), how quickly can you tele-transport between accessories, how many times to you have to climb up and down ladders and stairs etc. How often do the plasterers clean out the boxes for you. In domestics, the kitchen sockets and fcus are usually under high level cupboards reducing visibility and access. It all adds up.

I was once told in no uncertain terms by a prospective customer that it only takes 24(!) minutes to fit a new socket (first and second fix), the materials cost less than £3 and the average electrician rate was £12 per hour therefore I should charge no more than a tenner for the job. I declined.

No doubt these unrealistic figures were gleaned from internet forums.

If you're short of work then you are probably too slow / expensive. If you aren't then you are doing it right.
 07 November 2017 01:11 PM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 1450
Joined: 19 January 2016

I hate it when people put a timer on how quick you can thrash in cables and mangle joists for the lowest possible price.
I have seen quotes on other forum sights offering full rewires for under £900 etc
Fuse board upgrades for £199 etc
I'm so glad I'm not a greenhorn staring out in the business at those rates you are better off working in a supermarket
 07 November 2017 08:44 PM
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mikejumper

Posts: 2451
Joined: 14 December 2006

Originally posted by: JackC20
I'm currently working in houses that took me a day and a half to 1st fix and 2 days plus a few hours to 2nd fix.

So between 3.5 and 4 days to wire a house!
 07 November 2017 08:44 PM
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ebee

Posts: 6345
Joined: 02 December 2004

Av 20 mins per point steady plod.
Including cleaning excees plaster out, brush inside box and sending rethreader down screwholes

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 07 November 2017 10:01 PM
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leckie

Posts: 4397
Joined: 21 November 2008

I suspect Jack is talking about new builds on large housing sites.

Now as much as I have a great deal of respect for DavidZ, RnR, and a few others, as engineers and all round genius people, when it comes to money and business sense IGNORE THEM. they don't have a clue.

I can tell you now that if you look at the time structure for mas new house badgers, the lowest time you will get for 2nd fixing a twin socket to a flush metal box is about 0.11 of an hour into a plaster board wall. A bit more for a wet plastered wall, say 0.13 of an hour. This is an example I will leave you to do the sums. As wired science says, the dead time needs to be allowed for.

If you are talking about rewires, commercial, one offs, etc, the rate will be far more.

I might not be as good at the engineering as some of the very clever people on this forum, but when it comes to money, time and motion, I do know what I am talking about. Forty years of pricing and analysing helps a bit.
 07 November 2017 11:05 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 10107
Joined: 18 January 2003

No one has mentioned how big the houses are.

Andy B.
 08 November 2017 07:04 AM
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leckie

Posts: 4397
Joined: 21 November 2008

Correct, the size of the house and other variables have not been mentioned, but I have given the shortest time that would be allowed for the easiest installation based on a mass build site. So based on a basic 3 bedroom new estate dwelling. Anything larger, on a tradional plaster wall finish, refurb, etc, would take longer and the unit rate would increase.

In all industries, the workmen consistently think things take a shorter time than they actually do. It's one of the reasons why so many firms and small business's go bust. They think of the actual time it takes to fit a down light or external flood light for example. The setting out, collecting the materials, accounting for loading, tea breaks, and all the other bits does not get taken into account.

Brilliant engineers do not always make good businessmen. Bobby Charlton was a great footballer but a rubbish manager
 08 November 2017 07:13 AM
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davezawadi

Posts: 3907
Joined: 26 June 2002

Hi Leckie

I'm sure you realise that 0.12 of an hour is 7.2 minutes. Whilst there seem to be shocks out there at 5 minutes, I don't think this is unreasonable, and we were not discussing fixing up others work like plaster filling the box, damaged threads or anything else. There is method in my number, and it is preparation of the job in first fix. Stick a piece of tape over the box at first fix, and the plasterer will not fill your nice box which will save time. Have a vacuum cleaner for cleanout. If you use conduit and do not fit the tape then expect to have conduits filled with un-removable plaster, as happened on a site recently (I was AVing, the spark was quite sad as they had to replace several lengths of conduit). I cannot see how one could spend 20 minutes fitting an accessory, probably at least £10 in labour, unless the first fix and plastering were disasterous! Part of this comes down to fitting the accessories in easy to get at places, not hidden in cupboards or right in room corners. Low voltage downlighters are particularly good at taking up time, and are really 2 items so you get somewhat longer.

The labour rate (per hour) does come down to your own efficiency, and if you are quick you can get more done. I am always amazed at the wholesaler when someone comes in and buys a few sockets and ceiling drops. Why do they not have common items in stock and buy in quantity so as to get the best price? Ok you say this needs investment in your business stock, but a visit to the wholesaler costs you time which would be better spent doing the spark part of the job. The same goes for cable, CUs etc. and also for having all the tools for the job, again some spend time going to the hire shop where you will pay for the item with a few weeks hire.

The design of the accessories matters too, less than the price. Easy to get at screws, a single direction for cables etc all help and literally cost pennies more. Using deeper boxes than the minimum allows easy cable routing and prevents that desperate push to get the accessory to fit, as does using an electric screwdriver (with torque setting) for the M3.5 screws. It all makes a worthwhile differece. BTW Leckie I do know, that is why I give advice on installation, if you try my ideas and time yourself you will be surprised at the difference. I believe in a fair days work for a good days pay, but hate waste of effort which just makes everyone tired!

-------------------------
David
BSc CEng MIET
david@ZawadiSoundAndLighting.co.uk
 08 November 2017 07:36 AM
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Paradigm

Posts: 872
Joined: 10 September 2010

Hi Dave

I did smile when I read your comment about putting tape over the box. Sure the plasterer won't fill your box up but I guarantee more times than not, you won't be able to find it straight away as he will have skimmed right over it..

Fine when it's a thin layer as you can tap about to locate it but I had one over zealous chap who must have been trying for the world record of undercoat thickness and had hidden the boxes with a good layer of render before skimming over them. It took a lot longer than 5 minutes to find them and the main contractor wasn't interested so who took the hit?

Though I agree with most of your post, I probably buy better than the majority (spent three years hiatus running a completely different type of business where buying was critical to profit) and think the same way around equipment, there has to be a factor for what can only be called buggeration. Things will go wrong, they always do and you have to factor that in your pricing.

Reds

Nick

-------------------------
"be careful of what you write"
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