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Topic Title: Replace plastic trunking
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Created On: 03 November 2017 04:58 PM
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 07 November 2017 02:08 PM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 1450
Joined: 19 January 2016

The buying/selling houses with or without the certificates isn't really an issue.
Our first house had new windows but no fensa cert so we paid iirc £35 for an indemnity policy to cover the windows.
The buyer pays this not the seller.
So if the house sale is held up by missing electrical certification for say a partial rewire carried out 4 years prior the buyer can buy an indemnity policy for a tiny fee and the sale will go through no issue
 07 November 2017 05:34 PM
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geoffsd

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Nobody is arguing that you shouldn't notify if you are supposed to.

We are discussing poorly thought out and poorly written regulations and whether you are meant to notify or not.

Personally I think the relaxation in the requirements in 2013 should not have happened - but they did.
It all but totally removed ancillary trades from the need to register (which I thought was the main reason for the original legislation) and now only electricians who know what they are doing (and plumbers fitting new electric showers) need to belong to a scheme.
The powers that be obviously think it is not very important.

If you think that "replacing" the cable of a circuit means you should notify then that's fine.
However, don't forget things like outside power and kitchen installations were removed from the need to notify which are far more hazardous.
 07 November 2017 09:27 PM
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leckie

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I suppose that in fact I am not too interested in the notification bit, although your client may, for £3 you can save them the hassle. But I am rather despondent at the the position taken that a total rewire is not a new circuit. I think it is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read on this site. As I said, it's a race to the bottom. I may be technically wrong, I am not sure, but I think I am actually right. Hey ho, crack on however you like. But I find it depressing.
 07 November 2017 09:35 PM
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daveparry1

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Agreed Leckie, I don't see how anyone can say a re-wire is not new circuits.
 07 November 2017 10:24 PM
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geoffsd

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Since 2013 in England, the list of notifiable work is:

(6A) A person intending to carry out building work in relation to which Part P of Schedule 1 imposes a requirement is required to give a building notice or deposit full plans where the work consists of -

(a)the installation of a new circuit;

(b)the replacement of a consumer unit; or

(c)any addition or alteration to existing circuits in a special location.


That's it - from the actual law
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/...119/regulation/6/made

- not a book someone has written about those three very short clauses.

Make up your own mind, but why notify if you don't have to?

Notification has nothing to do with how well you do your work.
 08 November 2017 07:16 AM
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leckie

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I agree Geoff, but I get regular calls from people wanting an EICR because they have either no certificate, an unacceptable certificate, or no notification. It's always last minute as they are waiting to exchange contracts and is very stressful. For a saving of £3 notification

As I said, in my opinion rewires are new circuits and a MWC is not the correct model form, others may disagree . But I would ask this question to the contract manager, facility managers, works managers, etc. If you were overseeing a rewire of a steel conduit installation in a factory, a school, or a MOD building of a ring final circuit as an example, and the electrician produced a MWC would you accept it? No, nor would I. Try telling a clerk of works that a MWC is quicker and easier for you to do and see what response you would get
 08 November 2017 07:20 PM
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geoffsd

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Originally posted by: leckie

I agree Geoff, but I get regular calls from people wanting an EICR because they have either no certificate, an unacceptable certificate, or no notification.

If you mean a Completion or Compliance Certificate, then if the work was not notifiable there won't be one.
If you mean an EIC or MEIWC then that is either the fault of the electrician or they have lost it.

It's always last minute as they are waiting to exchange contracts and is very stressful. For a saving of £3 notification

It's not a question of £3 notification or not.
Why do they want a Completion or Compliance Certificate if the work was not notifiable.
There is always the option of stating the certificate is lost and the selling price is for the property as it is.

I am not nor ever have advocated NOT notifying work which is notifiable. All I am doing is advising on what I consider NON-notifiable according to the words of The Law - not some guidance which makes up things about CCC and routes and someone else's views.

As I said, in my opinion rewires are new circuits

That's fine if you have read the Building Regulation and made up your own mind - not just done what NIC say because they have 'rewire' on their notification site.

and a MWC is not the correct model form, others may disagree

I keep saying the type of certificate is irrelevant to whether notification is required, or not. You reply you know that and are not saying that - but you have said it again.

There are:
non-notifiable jobs where an MEIWC is sufficient.
notifiable jobs where an MEIWC is sufficient.
non-notifiable jobs where an EIC is required.
notifiable jobs where an EIC is required.

But I would ask this question to the contract manager, facility managers, works managers, etc. If you were overseeing a rewire of a steel conduit installation in a factory, a school, or a MOD building of a ring final circuit as an example, and the electrician produced a MWC would you accept it. No, nor would I.? Try telling a clerk of works that a MWC is quicker and easier for you to do and see what response you would get

NO - but what has that got to do with anything?
Even if it were a dwelling what has it got to do with whether something is notifiable or whether it is not?
 08 November 2017 09:56 PM
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leckie

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Unfortunately, I am not getting my point over very well which is obviously because I cannot express my point very well in writing. This is why Zs is brilliant because of fantastic writing skills, I am lacking in that area.

My only final thought on all of this, and what I am trying, badly, to express, is that the client deserves better that contractors trying to issue unsuitable certificates, avoidance of notifying jobs, and being left in the lurch or inconvenienced by lack of bits of paper. I am not interested in the semantics of analysing what technically is or is not notifiable. But I do know that a rewire is a new circuit.

None of my comments are aimed at any particular person unless I have addressed it to them directly. Just general forum fodder.

I suspect that most of us actually agree on the good intention of our endeavours, and are trying to do the best possible thing for our clients. Unfortunately trying to get that intention explained in a forum is a bit more difficult that it seems. So my attempts to explain my point/s is getting lost. No blame attached to any of you at all, just my poor attempts to explain myself and my intended message is being totally misunderstood.
 08 November 2017 10:23 PM
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AJJewsbury

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But I do know that a rewire is a new circuit.

If by a "rewire" you mean literally that - replacing the wires (cables) like for like, using the same circuit protective device and same accessories, then I disagree that it's a new circuit at all, it's the same old circuit with just new cables. Ditto replacing just the accessories one by one. Ditto for replacing the fusewire in a rewireable fuse carrier (same protective device, just a replaceable element replaced).

Remember that the building regs are written by bureaucrats more interested in semantic consistency (and placating lobby groups) than engineering good practice. It's clear from AD P that adding extra sockets to an existing circuit (outside of special locations) is not notifiable - so you could take an existing circuit perhaps serving a single socket and add new cabling and maybe 20 new sockets - all clearly non-notifiable. So why should that be any different from replacing the cables on an existing 20-socket circuit?

It's not about what you (or I) think would be best for the building regs to say - it's just about what they actually say at the moment - as them's the rules we have to play by.

- Andy.
 08 November 2017 10:57 PM
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sparkingchip

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Joined: 18 January 2003

Sorry folks, it's laughable.

The post on the current front page of this forum with the most replies and discussion is the whys and wherefores of removing a bit of mini trunking on someones lounge wall and letting the cable into the plasterwork to conceal it.

Apparently there is a need for expensive power tools, completely replacing the cables and notifications to the council building control.

When my wife and I bought our first house some thirty six years ago it had been rewired with everyting surface mounted, so I went through the house letting cables into the wall and installing flush boxes. The only new cable that went into that house was for additions, not to replace what was already there. I did it as a DIYer as I hadn't qualified as an electrician then, I did all the chasing by hand and no one signed it off.

What a disgrace!

Andy B.
 09 November 2017 07:41 AM
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dustydazzler

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Joined: 19 January 2016

isnt this common practice now within the trade , to turn a simple 2 hour diy job and convince the homeowner that's its a full days work rewiring the circuit requiring a vetted electrician , extensive tools and equipment and full planning permission

How else are we supposed to earn a living under part pee
 09 November 2017 08:46 AM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 10107
Joined: 18 January 2003

Originally posted by: dustydazzler

isnt this common practice now within the trade , to turn a simple 2 hour diy job and convince the homeowner that's its a full days work rewiring the circuit requiring a vetted electrician , extensive tools and equipment and full planning permission



How else are we supposed to earn a living under part pee


Part P doesn't require a notification for this work, so what has part P got to do with it?
 09 November 2017 08:58 AM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 1450
Joined: 19 January 2016

Nothing.
thats my point
IET » Wiring and the regulations » Replace plastic trunking

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