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Topic Title: Who actually needs BS 7671
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Created On: 02 November 2017 02:01 PM
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 02 November 2017 02:01 PM
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jonel

Posts: 9
Joined: 19 October 2017

I am a little confused over the need for electrical installations staff to be certified in the 17th Edition Regulations.
I was heavily involved in Electrical Engineering when I was younger but that was in the Royal Navy. Just recently I have become interested once more because I have a grandson who is currently completing his electrical apprenticeship.
I have been helping him with his 17th Edition revision and that has led me to create a number of web-based resources. I wish to make these available but I'm confused about the actual requirement to hold certification of BS 7671. There are a number of points I would love this forum to clear up for me.

1. Is it actually a requirement for a qualified electrician to hold the 17th Edition (assuming no other Edition is held)? It doesn't appear to be the case but more of an advantage in getting work.

2. The Domestic Installer Scheme requires the installer to have a copy of the 17th Edition on the basis that the installer is conversant with just those areas of BS 7671 for which their work covers. Is this scheme provided for non-qualified installers.

3. The Competent Persons Scheme also requires the installer to have a copy of BS 7671, but I assume this is another scheme to allow kitchen fitters to carry out specific electrical work.

Thanks

Jonel
 02 November 2017 02:07 PM
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Martynduerden

Posts: 3235
Joined: 13 July 2008

No requirement for 'electricians' to be qualified or hold any specific qualifications.

Schemes require books to tick their boxes to operate under dclg guidelines for such schemes.

DI is one specific registration body.

CPS is all encompasing of the many schemes.

Getting work is easier with 17th edition

Self employed is easier with a CPS membership

Neither will prevent you working

Bit of a joke really.

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best
 02 November 2017 02:14 PM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 1445
Joined: 19 January 2016

Some of the best electricians that I have worked with held 0 formal qualifications
 02 November 2017 02:40 PM
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jonel

Posts: 9
Joined: 19 October 2017

Thank you for the very prompt reply. I do agree that it seems a bit of a joke. Especially when I looked at the Domestic Installer requirements for BS 7671 (applicants need only hold a copy of the regulations)
So BS 7671 is beneficial to have as an electrician. Is there anyone who 'must' have it?

I have (in the distant past) had a long experience of electrical engineering in the Royal Navy. Although it is not my intention to, how could I now practice as an electrician? Is this just hand-on tests at a centre? (forgive my ignorance, I'm just trying to see what makes an electrician 'qualified')

Jonel
 02 November 2017 02:53 PM
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 15990
Joined: 13 August 2003

There seems to be some confusion here - BS 7671 isn't a qualification. BS 7671 is British Standard "Requirements for Electrical Installations". BS 7671 certification only applies to electrical installations, not to people.

There are some qualifications - e.g. City and Guilds 2382 - which may be used to show that someone has adequate knowledge of BS 7671. Some schemes, employers or insurance companies may ask for such qualifications; some schemes might only ask that the candidate possesses the required technical documents (including their own copy of BS 7671 and/or the OSG) - their knowledge being tested in some other way - e.g. via inspection of their work and interview. Adequate knowledge of BS 7671 might also be obtained in any other number of ways - perhaps just reading it on your own.

- Andy.
 02 November 2017 02:59 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 10094
Joined: 18 January 2003

On the menu bar across the top of this page click Building Regulations then Electrotechnical Assessment Scheme

From there you can go to the EAS documents.

Andy B
 02 November 2017 03:08 PM
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jonel

Posts: 9
Joined: 19 October 2017

Yes, I see what you mean. Sorry, I have confused things by referring to BS 7671 (probably because I have done so much work with it recently). So, being qualified by passing C&G 2382 (or any other similar certification) is not a requirement for working electrician - just an advantage perhaps.
I am amazed at the sheer range of centres that offering C&G 2382 and so it appears they don't need it anyway!

Thanks though

Jonel
 02 November 2017 03:22 PM
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mapj1

Posts: 9553
Joined: 22 July 2004

There is often a need to demonstrate competence, especially if you want to have some sort of professional insurance.
A certificate from C and G is one, very popular, way to do this.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 02 November 2017 03:27 PM
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geoffsd

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Originally posted by: jonel
how could I now practice as an electrician?

You just can. Any one may.
You might not get a job with a company with no qualifications.

Is this just hand-on tests at a centre?

No, it is just a test to show you understand how to use BS7671 - The Wiring Regulations.
You only need that to join a self-certifying (more accurately a self-notifying) scheme so that you do not have to involve the Local Authority when doing notifiable work.

(forgive my ignorance, I'm just trying to see what makes an electrician 'qualified')

They are only 'qualified' in the aspects in which they have 'qualified'.
None of which is necessary to be an electrician.
 02 November 2017 03:42 PM
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mapj1

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This Website claims its mock questions are representative, based on past tests. This is an open book exam so you have the 17th edition of Wiring Regulations book beside you, and there are 2 mins per question.

As one who of those independent grey haired types who has not actually sat an exam for an up to date C &G anything since it went multi-choice, I cannot comment on how representative the level is, that, but if true, they don't look especially tricky if one has actually digested the regs in advance, or at least the headings and how to use the index.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 02 November 2017 03:46 PM
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jonel

Posts: 9
Joined: 19 October 2017

I knew I would get excellent replies in this forum. I have been looking at the conversation over the past couple of weeks and the display of knowledge is awesome. I'm so glad I asked the question though, because I can now see my resources will not be so needed after all.

But, never start a job that your not prepared to finish.

I think the bottom line is that having a qualification like C&G 2382 is probably key to working for someone else and also probably good to have anyway. But self employed electricians can get along quite well when belonging to a Domestic Installer scheme.

Jonel
 02 November 2017 04:19 PM
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dustydazzler

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most sparkles who I met most recently on job sites only hold the 17th ed wiring regs better know as 2394 ?
 02 November 2017 04:35 PM
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tattyinengland

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I'm half sure that to belong to any recognised scheme(Including the domestic installer scheme) you'd need the 17 edition.

One way, and probably the easiest way, of demonstrating competence in our electrical field is to hold paper qualifications recognised by other professionals, insurance companies, the courts etc etc, one very basic paper qualification and certainly the easiest to achieve is "the 17th edition" of BS7671.

This does not mean that you know anything or can do anything but at least is a way to show that you know how to use the rule book and that you have kept up with changes in the regulations if you have been in the game for a while.

I believe that most recruitment agencies hold the 17th edition pass qualification (I'm unsure of the C&G number) as the holy grail of competence.
 02 November 2017 08:01 PM
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KFH

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Joined: 06 November 2010

I sat a C&G multiple guess exam on the 17th ed. It was very straightforward if you had any idea about the layout of the regs and can use the index. Two of us were doing the exam when I took it and we both finished it well within the allowed time. I think t is usually a requirement of the scams, sorry Part P schemes, that you have a qualification on the latter edition.
 02 November 2017 10:24 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 10094
Joined: 18 January 2003

Originally posted by: sparkingchip

On the menu bar across the top of this page click Building Regulations then Electrotechnical Assessment Scheme



From there you can go to the EAS documents.



Andy B


If you look at 8.1 in the EAS you will see that possessing a copy of the OSG is not essential for an full scope electrician, yet I had a non-compliance noted at a annual assessment for not having the latest version. I had to buy one and forward a copy of the IET invoice to my scheme operator.

You will also notice that a limited scope enterprise has to have a copy of the OSG, but not BS7671 though a full scope electrical enterprise has to have BS7671.

Both have to have HS(R)25 Memorandum of Guidance on the Electricity at Work Regulations and Building Regulations, Approved Document P.

Andy B.

Edited: 02 November 2017 at 10:31 PM by sparkingchip
 02 November 2017 10:25 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 10094
Joined: 18 January 2003

Electrotechnical Assessment Scheme:

11.11 Registered Qualified Supervisors shall be required to hold an appropriate BS 7671 Qualification awarded by an Accredited body within two years of a change to the BS 7671
regulations coming into effect or be able to demonstrate an equivalent level of knowledge.

Andy B.
 02 November 2017 10:45 PM
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MWalker86

Posts: 99
Joined: 05 June 2017

I took a 3 day 17th edition course with a london based provider in december. Including my travel costs it was about £600 all in.

The instructor was very knowledgeable and tried quite well to try to tie the statements of the regulations into the electrical theory and practical reasoning behind them.

I am not an electrician, I know about electrical stuff but I have never spent a whole day wiring a house. I could figure out how to put a DB on the wall and what cables I need to do it but I suspect I would take about 5 times as long as the other (decades long) time served guys on the course. They also took 5 times as long as me to look up and comprehend what they were reading in the book when asked a question about a reg.

It was a multiple choice exam of 60 questions with 4 choices each. Some of them really weren't much more than naming the title of the book but others did actually take a little nous and knowledge to get right. I got 59/60, and it bummed me that they couldn't tell me which one I got wrong for some weird reason known only to C&G.

A very intelligent person with no knowledge could in theory pick up the book and answer the questions but really you do need a bit of experience in what a normal electrician does on a daily basis if you want to navigate it in a sensible time frame.
 02 November 2017 10:46 PM
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Martynduerden

Posts: 3235
Joined: 13 July 2008

Happy 10,000th post Andy!

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best
 02 November 2017 11:05 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 10094
Joined: 18 January 2003

I hadn't noticed that, I had also not noticed that I have been a member of this forum for over fourteen years.

Welcome back Martyn.
 02 November 2017 11:15 PM
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Martynduerden

Posts: 3235
Joined: 13 July 2008

Originally posted by: sparkingchip

I hadn't noticed that, I had also not noticed that I have been a member of this forum for over fourteen years.

Welcome back Martyn.


14 years

Cheers Andy.

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best
IET » Wiring and the regulations » Who actually needs BS 7671

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