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Topic Title: DIN rail vertically mounted - any cons?
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Created On: 28 October 2017 01:50 PM
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 28 October 2017 01:50 PM
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TimJWatts

Posts: 421
Joined: 07 August 2013

Hi,

There's nothing against mounting DIN rail vertically is there, if friction stop ends are added to stop the terminals migrating downwards (or they are deployed to the edge of the enclosure)?

It's a short bar, 8" long ish, about a dozen Wago TopJob terminals and 3 Omron relays. It's the wiring centre for my heating (relays for UFH zones).

Space is tight and vertical works better, but you usually see DIN deployed horizontally... So just wondered...

This is it:

DIN Box

Happens with that particular box we can get more holes in the long sides so that's rather encouraging it to go that way...


Cheers,

Tim

Edited: 28 October 2017 at 02:01 PM by TimJWatts
 28 October 2017 02:34 PM
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 16008
Joined: 13 August 2003

but you usually see DIN deployed horizontally

Except in a normal 3-phase (type B) distribution board - where vertical is normal - with both left & right side up. I wouldn't have thought there was much to worry about.
- Andy.
 28 October 2017 02:42 PM
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TimJWatts

Posts: 421
Joined: 07 August 2013

Thanks, Andy.

I did manage to find a couple of pictures in the last few minutes of vertical deployment - and noted the use of "stop blocks" (which I have a bagfull)

Pictures when it's done - just got to go and stick a spur in the ring for the main isolator/fuse now...
 29 October 2017 08:51 AM
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alancapon

Posts: 6919
Joined: 27 December 2005

Not a problem - we often mount din rail (or g rail) vertically. My preference though is Klippon terminals rather than wago due to their range and the numerous approvals they have.

Regards,

Alan.
 29 October 2017 08:56 AM
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TimJWatts

Posts: 421
Joined: 07 August 2013

Thank you Alan

Those Klippons look very nice...
 29 October 2017 09:23 AM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 1450
Joined: 19 January 2016

Look forward to seeing the finished article

My only ever gripe is when I come across domestic single phase boards mounted vertically. Yes I have come across a few believe it or not.
Or upside down mcbs in a board just looks naff.

No issue with a rail box sideways up thou.
 29 October 2017 10:49 AM
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TimJWatts

Posts: 421
Joined: 07 August 2013

You might see something today or tomorrow - I just have a couple more conduits to stick in then I can start pulling wires
 31 October 2017 09:47 PM
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TimJWatts

Posts: 421
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As promised:

Pictures...

Not complete yet - needs the manual override rocker switches and 4 conductors pulled through to the boiler Wiska box.

The wiring box will be tidied a bit. There are 2 more zones to add later for underfloor heating - hence the relays. Big chunky 10A Omrons. You can hear those the other side of the house... 2 have to directly operate a pump (UFH mixer/blender) so it seemed wise to over specify the relays.
 31 October 2017 09:52 PM
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TimJWatts

Posts: 421
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Circuit diagram

I didn't want to assume any given heating programmer was volt free so I added an extra relay as they're cheap enough.

System I'm installing is: Genius Heating which is a British company that uses off the shelf parts to make a ZWave system. It's nice, I've used it before.

So thanks for everyone's help with various problemettes - I'm happy how this is turning out and am really grateful you're willing to offer advice to an amateur...

All the best!

Tim
 31 October 2017 09:57 PM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 1450
Joined: 19 January 2016

There is nothing 'amateur' about this installation

Looks bonza
 31 October 2017 11:50 PM
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alancapon

Posts: 6919
Joined: 27 December 2005

Originally posted by: TimJWatts
. . . Those Klippons look very nice...

Particularly the "RSF" types. The terminals are spring loaded, as well as having a clamping screw. The spring alone allows carrying of the rated current without attempting to tighten the clamping screw.

Regards,

Alan.
 31 October 2017 11:58 PM
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mapj1

Posts: 9574
Joined: 22 July 2004

very solid looking. The reason no pro would do it like that is not that it is amateur, it is that they would be undercut. It reminds me of far more serious kit, I'm almost expecting to see force guided relays and secondary fault indications..

-------------------------
regards Mike
 01 November 2017 12:17 AM
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TimJWatts

Posts: 421
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Thank you. It took long enough

I work in computer rooms so I always marvel at the beauty of conduit, basket tray, ladderwork with massive SWA cables, 400A distribution panels...
 01 November 2017 12:20 AM
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TimJWatts

Posts: 421
Joined: 07 August 2013

Thank you sir. I wish I had more experience and speed, then the rest of my house would look as neat

PS the plumbing is not mine - I was lucky to have met some plumbers who are really amazing with pipework and put up with me sitting on them all day to squeeze the pipes as far out of the way as possible of other services.

I talked to a few and several said "copper - why? Just use plastic". Me: "you just failed the interview"
 01 November 2017 12:21 AM
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TimJWatts

Posts: 421
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Out of interest, what's a force guided relay?
 01 November 2017 09:11 AM
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mapj1

Posts: 9574
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Sorry, slang for 'relay with force guided contacts' by which we mean there are more sets of contacts on the relay than we need for the power switching function, and they are all ganged forcibly for both up and down directions, so that if the main contacts are welded or fail to move for an reason, all the contacts are ganged in a way that means they too will stay put.
(designs that push one way but allow individual contacts to fall back on their own or have a spring each are not force guided)
Firstly this is good for things like motor reversing circuits, where in an H bridge, one side moving and the other side staying put could put a dead short on the supply.
The second use, and the one I was thinking of while looking at your job, is in rather more critical stuff where the auxiliary contacts provide a 'has my relay or contactor worked properly?' monitoring function.

This may also operate indicators on the control panel, but at the very least the relay actuator signal =coil voltage is compared to the voltage on a monitor contact , and an alarm raised if they are inconsistent.

Once upon a time there would be a low current alarm relay with its coil to the live end of the main relay coil, and the other end switched by the monitor contact on the main relay to be either live supply or ground.
If the main relay coil came live, and the monitor contact did not move but remained at 0V, the warning relay would operate, and also if the main relay coil power was off, but the aux contact had not returned but had left the warning relay coil live at the other end, current would trickle via the main relay coil and again, raise an alarm.
In normal operation the voltage on the main coil and the aux contact would track each other, and the monitor relay would remain off apart from brief flickers during changeover, normally ignored (but sometimes measured as a variable relay change over time can also be a warning that maintenance will soon be needed, if it is getting sticky)

This scheme requires relays with at least half an order of magnitude of discrimination between pull in and drop out currents for the monitor and main relays, and nowadays the monitor relay function is replaced by opto-couplers that draw single figure milliamps or less, and the alarm signal may now disappear into something programmable.

Such design is heavy and expensive to do so, normally seen in "silverplate" designs controlling things with critical pressure,fuel levels, core temperatures, dangerous voltages what have you, that all have to be right. The big red button at mission control only becomes enabled once every contact in the interlock relay "cascade", and usually a few operators fortress keys as well, all give it the 'go' signal, and any mis-operation would be more than jobsworth.

Hope that helps.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 01 November 2017 09:23 AM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 1450
Joined: 19 January 2016

You guys lost me at 'force guided relays' , I'm never playing top trumps with you lot

I think I will just stick to lashing in twin and earth and putting my foot through the occasional ceiling
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