IET logo
 
IET
Decrease font size
Increase font size
Topic Title: Bottle Table Lamps
Topic Summary: Do They Need PAT before sale
Created On: 09 October 2017 04:47 PM
Status: Read Only
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
Search Topic Search Topic
Topic Tools Topic Tools
View similar topics View similar topics
View topic in raw text format. Print this topic.
 09 October 2017 04:47 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



DPendleton

Posts: 5
Joined: 02 May 2007

Hi A friend is building Table lamps out of bottles using a kit she has bought. The kit comprises of a pre wired 13 amp plug fitted with 3A fuse, an inline pre wired switch an a separate Brass lamp holder that is connected after feeding the lead through holes cut in the bottle which have glued in grommets.

Do these need PAT before selling them .... I don't think they do as all the parts are new, CE marked and fit for purpose. Your comments would be welcome.

Thanks
Dennis
 09 October 2017 05:07 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



AJJewsbury

Posts: 16114
Joined: 13 August 2003

Brass lamp holder that is connected after feeding the lead through holes cut in the bottle

I'm not sure about the regs, but personally I'd want some paper defence if someone later claimed I'd mis-connected L to PE and vice versa, or missed the earth connection or some such.

Curiously, there were such kits about when I was young (the fashion then was to cover the bottle with sea shells stuck on with polyfiller!) - but they always had the flex come out of an extra hole in the side of the base of the lampholder - so the flex didn't have to go through the bottle - hence no user wiring was needed.

- Andy.
 09 October 2017 05:18 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



gkenyon

Posts: 4982
Joined: 06 May 2002

If these are for use in your friend's home, then I guess it's up to them.

If the finished lamps are for sale, then I believe the Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regulations 2016 applies ... and the whole product would be subject to the relevant requirements for CE Marking where appropriate. Regulations 11 & 22 require (at the very least) an appropriate level of sample testing by a manufacturer / importer. It's worth having a read, and deciding what level of inspections / tests would be appropriate ... and whether to document how the component-parts (even if CE Marked) are sourced and quality-assured, in case of a complaint or issue with a completed product that is sold.

-------------------------
EUR ING Graham Kenyon CEng MIET TechIOSH
G Kenyon Technology Ltd

Web-Site: www.gkenyontech.com
 09 October 2017 05:22 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



FizzleBang

Posts: 1309
Joined: 05 January 2007

Unfortunately a item made from individually CE marked components doesn't automatically make the whole item CE approved.

PAT isn't a legal requirement but is one way of demonstrating duty of care for persons or bodies such as employers and landlords. Insurers my insist that PAT is carried out.

Normally manufactured goods will be certified as fit for purpose by carrying a CE mark.PAT may then be required at specified periods during service to indicate whether the item is fit to continue in service due to wear and tear.

I don't think that PAT is a recognised standard for the initial sale of goods.

If the lampholder/switch/plug was a preassembled, CE marked item I'd be happy to sell it on. As it is, a bit of rough handling and the brass lampholder could become live. Any investigation would ask for evidence type approval testing or equivalent.

-------------------------
To me, to you
 09 October 2017 05:30 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



OlympusMons

Posts: 71
Joined: 05 February 2016

Why assemble the lamps?
Just sell the beautiful bottles along with the electrical stuff and copies of the assembly instructions. Have one assembled for show that she "did earlier".
 09 October 2017 08:57 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



alancapon

Posts: 6942
Joined: 27 December 2005

Originally posted by: OlympusMons
. . . Just sell the beautiful bottles along with the electrical stuff and copies of the assembly instructions. . .

Even enclosing the instructions, assuming these include how to connect the lamp holder, you need to be very careful that they cannot be misinterpreted.

Regards,

Alan.
 09 October 2017 09:11 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



OlympusMons

Posts: 71
Joined: 05 February 2016

just found this kit which has self-adhesive CE sticker to put on your lamp. Shame they are out of stock.

Edit: I see in the small print "The finished unit should be tested to BS-EN 60598" in the install instructions
 09 October 2017 09:25 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



leckie

Posts: 4452
Joined: 21 November 2008

Lots of these on EBay with no CE markings. Also loads sold at various markets, etc.
 09 October 2017 10:46 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



Legh

Posts: 4067
Joined: 17 December 2004

PAT is as stated Portable Appliance Testing or as written on the code of practice 'code of practice for in service inspection and testing of portable equipment' has nothing to do with the quality assurance of manufactured equipment although electrical equipment adapted to be used elsewhere may be construed to be in service after being sold on.
I would certainly not go forward without first making basic checks such as the supply of such artifacts, testing to include insulation resistance , earth continuity, fuse ratings and manufacture, quality of brass fitting, cable flex cores etc....

Legh

-------------------------

http://www.leghrichardson.co.uk

de-avatared
 09 October 2017 11:23 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



alancapon

Posts: 6942
Joined: 27 December 2005

Originally posted by: Legh
. . . I would certainly not go forward without first making basic checks such as the supply of such artifacts, testing to include insulation resistance , earth continuity, fuse ratings and manufacture, quality of brass fitting, cable flex cores etc....

I agree. I proved this point last weekend, although not at home I must add!

I needed to use a drill, and decided to test the socket was live, before I fetched the 110V transformer. There was a table lamp plugged in, so the answer was obvious. I switched the socket on, and was rewarded by a mighty flash and bang, followed by the flex falling from the plug.

The wires were clamped by the cord grip within an inch of their lives, rather than the cord grip clamping the cable sheath. It seems that the insulation on the wires eventually split, leading to the short when I attempted to turn it on. The 13A fuse in the plug was still intact, although the 32A mcb supplying the socket did fortunately operate.

Regards,

Alan.
 09 October 2017 11:31 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



gkenyon

Posts: 4982
Joined: 06 May 2002

Originally posted by: leckie

Lots of these on EBay with no CE markings. Also loads sold at various markets, etc.
Just because the components (or other finished products) don't look like they comply with the legislation, doesn't mean they'll be immune from prosecution if anyone were to "make the claim".

-------------------------
EUR ING Graham Kenyon CEng MIET TechIOSH
G Kenyon Technology Ltd

Web-Site: www.gkenyontech.com
 09 October 2017 11:32 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



gkenyon

Posts: 4982
Joined: 06 May 2002

Originally posted by: OlympusMons

just found this kit which has self-adhesive CE sticker to put on your lamp. Shame they are out of stock.



Edit: I see in the small print "The finished unit should be tested to BS-EN 60598" in the install instructions
And omits the simple fact that the "manufacturer" or "importer" of the finished product is, most likely, responsible for compliance with the relevant legislation.

-------------------------
EUR ING Graham Kenyon CEng MIET TechIOSH
G Kenyon Technology Ltd

Web-Site: www.gkenyontech.com
 10 October 2017 12:07 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



mapj1

Posts: 9707
Joined: 22 July 2004

sensibly, the risk is low, however as they are being placed on the market as it were, there is a legal responsibility.
Not to perform a PAT as such, but to take reasonable steps to ensure the safety of the user.
Factory testing is not normally the same as in the field, as instead of assuming it was once right but is now damaged in some way,
when first built there is a far greater risk, not of damage but that it may actually have been made wrong from the outset.
In many ways a rigorous visual inspection for correct plug wiring and for cable or lamp-holder damage might be more use, as I have seen nicked cables and loose covers passed by an PAT tester keen to get as many in the bag as possible before lunch.
IT is common in factory test to leave a witness mark such as a blob of paint, or an easy tear sticker, on things where if the customer undid it, the warrent would be invalid.
It may also be worth at least a simple earth continuity test if the mains lead is 3 core. (an ordinary multimeter will catch most of your problems.)

-------------------------
regards Mike
 12 October 2017 06:55 AM
User is online View Users Profile Print this message



davezawadi

Posts: 3961
Joined: 26 June 2002

The question is "why have a brass lamp holder?" as this makes the lamp have a possible fault scenario which is not necessary. The difficulty with table lamps is producing a satisfactory cord grip at the lamp end, particularly when using a glass bottle as the base. The CE mark could be added by the technical construction file route, which for such a product would probably only run to 1 or 2 pages.

PA test is not relevant to manufacturing, and if you change to a 2 conductor cable etc, would just need an inspection of correct assembly and an operational test. If you stick with a 3 conductor cable you need to add an earth bond test and ensure that it cannot be disconnected by abuse "by design", which would need a physical method of preventing holder rotation and a positive cable grip to the bottle, which are both difficult. However it is amazing what can be done with industrial super glue, although you need to consider maintenance. Note that a knot in the cable is not acceptable as a cord grip!

-------------------------
David
BSc CEng MIET
david@ZawadiSoundAndLighting.co.uk
 12 October 2017 12:52 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



gkenyon

Posts: 4982
Joined: 06 May 2002

Originally posted by: davezawadi
Note that a knot in the cable is not acceptable as a cord grip!
However, I do see this (or other inadequate cord restraint methods) on new appliances too often these days.

-------------------------
EUR ING Graham Kenyon CEng MIET TechIOSH
G Kenyon Technology Ltd

Web-Site: www.gkenyontech.com
 12 October 2017 01:09 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



AJJewsbury

Posts: 16114
Joined: 13 August 2003

Statistics

New here?


See Also:



FuseTalk Standard Edition v3.2 - © 1999-2017 FuseTalk Inc. All rights reserved.

..