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Topic Title: Customer Insists on NICEIC
Topic Summary: Insurance Issue
Created On: 05 October 2017 05:21 PM
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 08 October 2017 10:36 AM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 10184
Joined: 18 January 2003

Originally posted by: leckie

By the way, if you just want a trade body and don't need the CP bit for notification, the ECA is in a different class to all other bodies. Even though it's not quite as good since it linked up with Certsure, it is still fantastic. It really is worth looking at them if you haven't already, they offer some real benefits, including a huge discount on BUPA, which virtually pays the subscription.



I tend to forget the ECA assuming they are part of the NICEIC.

Andy B
 08 October 2017 01:27 PM
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spinlondon

Posts: 5494
Joined: 10 December 2004

Originally posted by: Igot3ears
I can't see how someone else's insurance company would speak to me because it is not my insurance policy so data protection would prevent them from discussing anything with me. Try phoning up your next door neighbour's insurance company and see how easy it is to speak to them - doh!


No data protection doesn't mean they cannot discuss anything with you.
The Data protection act prevents companies and institutions from passing on information pertaining to individuals held on computers and now in paper files to third parties.
Any requirement from an insurance company for NICEIC registration would in most cases be a general requirement that would apply to all policies. As such there would be no restrictions preventing discussion with third parties.

Anyway, what I have done in the past, is to get the customer to phone the insurance company, then hand the phone to me.
 08 October 2017 01:48 PM
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OlympusMons

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Yep, give them an ear bashing, using your spare.
 08 October 2017 04:12 PM
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leckie

Posts: 4452
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Originally posted by: sparkingchip

Originally posted by: leckie



By the way, if you just want a trade body and don't need the CP bit for notification, the ECA is in a different class to all other bodies. Even though it's not quite as good since it linked up with Certsure, it is still fantastic. It really is worth looking at them if you haven't already, they offer some real benefits, including a huge discount on BUPA, which virtually pays the subscription.






I tend to forget the ECA assuming they are part of the NICEIC.



Andy B


they share common things but the ECA represent the electrical contracting industry. They offer far many benefits such as discounted BUPA, free checking of contract document (a fantastic thing for larger contracts or anything you are not sure of), lots of technical data, guarantee of work (a bond), too much to cover here. One thing I like is online access to BS documents - nearly everything you would ever want except BS7671, for about £110 per year I think. It costs a lot more than that just for BS5839 part ! or 6.

Probably more useful to business's larger than a single person sole trader.

Regarding the NICEIC, nobody has given me any reason why they would join an alternative body except for it being slightly cheaper by a few quid. So for a few quid you dont need to explain things to clients, phone up insurers, etc. Just get on with the job and make some money. It obviously depends on your business if it is of any benefit to be in any organisation.
 08 October 2017 04:33 PM
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geoffsd

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Don't forget that the OP recently (five years) left NIC because he didn't think it necessary for his scaled down business.
 08 October 2017 05:25 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 10184
Joined: 18 January 2003

"Regarding the NICEIC, nobody has given me any reason why they would join an alternative body except for it being slightly cheaper by a few quid. So for a few quid you dont need to explain things to clients, phone up insurers, etc. Just get on with the job and make some money. It obviously depends on your business if it is of any benefit to be in any organisation."

First of I don't think the NICEIC is the be all and end all.

Secondly I have never really had an issue being in a scheme that isn't the NiCEIC and if someone came along now saying that they wouldn't accept an electrician in a different scheme I would just tell them to crack on and find someone else.

The issue the OP has is presumably that he isn't in a scheme at all, not that he is in the "wrong" one.

Andy B.
 08 October 2017 06:10 PM
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Alcomax

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Originally the NICEIC inspected electricians installation work, now they assess the electrician


No, they assess the business, the duty holder and / or Quantum supervisor. They may be all the same entity or not. It has always been so.

I do not think that the idea was ever to assess an "electrician" , what ever that is.


The issue the OP has is presumably that he isn't in a scheme at all, not that he is in the "wrong" one.


The OP issue was that the goal posts changed due to an insurance company requirement.

Schemes were voluntary...they still are, however some think they are mandatory. The may be helpful or not to your business. In essence they are no different to "federation of master builders", more so now due to vast membership numbers. Pre - incontinent persons schemes, there was at least a vestige of "exclusivity", now whats the difference to a tennis racket, except for the spelling?
 08 October 2017 07:01 PM
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sparkingchip

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Without trying to be too precise on the wording, originally a NICEIC inspector arrived with a set of NICEIC test equipment to undertake a inspection and test of a sample of the contractors work, now they assess a representative of the contractor and a sample of the contractors' work.

Therein lies a change in procedure that Bod can give you chapter and verse on.

The point I raised that has not been challenged is that the assessments are of installation work, not of EICRs, so how is the quality of EICRs being monitored?

In amongst all this we don't know whether the OP has been undertaking installation work or inspection and testing work or both for the client.

Andy B.
 08 October 2017 07:48 PM
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sparkingchip

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Originally posted by: geoffsd

Oh, sorry, I thought you meant that they would not allow your scheme to do the work.



In that case, I don't think there is much you can do about it - apart from join NIC.


I agree with Geoff, at the end of the day who does the electrical work is up to the client and their insurer.

They may end up with a lower standard of work after changing contractors, but they will have certificates with logos on them!

Andy B.
 08 October 2017 08:14 PM
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Alcomax

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Without trying to be too precise on the wording, originally a NICEIC inspector arrived with a set of NICEIC test equipment to undertake a inspection and test of a sample of the contractors work, now they assess a representative of the contractor and a sample of the contractors' work.


I can only call on experience of the procedure as far back as 1985 ish, the "representative" was then a "qualifying manager". Absolutely not would the Inspector do any testing or even have test equipment. They were more interested in lunch. The bigger the lunch the better.

Very very occasionally they would show off the latest gadget, but usually something non invasive like a clamp meter or loop tester. As now, it was the trading entity via the medium of the representative, that was assessed. The representative [ then QM , now QS ] notionally had to satisfy certain minimum requirements of competency else were subject to a re visit. So the revisit could be either due to the QM/ QS not being up to the task or the sample of work not meeting standards....or both.


Edit to add...

The point I raised that has not been challenged is that the assessments are of installation work, not of EICRs, so how is the quality of EICRs being monitored?



You can be Nicey AC for periodic inspections only and that would be you assessment.

If your are a Nicey DI, then no periodic inspection monitoring.

If your are AC and do periodic inspections, a sample would be assessed.

As for "quality" that is a whole different matter.

Edited: 08 October 2017 at 08:21 PM by Alcomax
 08 October 2017 08:31 PM
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leckie

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That is correct Alcomax, the assessment process is basically the same as it has been for the last 35 years. The assessor does nothing proactive. They check your paperwork, your required technical books, regs, Gn3, EAWR, etc, meters, list of work.....

My last three assessments have concentrated on industrial/commercial EICR's that I have carried out, plus a little bit of work.

My view on all of this is that the NICEIC is the most recognised body and that commercially they are at the moment the most logical choice. But then I think of a business as being something to make money from and that is the basis of my viewpoint. Its not that the NICEIC is the be all and end all, its that they have the most gravitas in our industry at this time.

The OP made a decision to leave the NICEIC because an assessment was made that it did not offer enough additional benefit. But now that has been found to be not completely true. Have I understood that correctly?
 09 October 2017 08:15 AM
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dgmeica

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Ah, for the good old days whereby if you weren't NICEIC, ECA & JIB you wouldn't even get on the tender list.....
 09 October 2017 12:44 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 10184
Joined: 18 January 2003

Originally posted by: dgmeica

Ah, for the good old days whereby if you weren't NICEIC, ECA & JIB you wouldn't even get on the tender list.....



The good old days weren't as good as how some people remember it.

I have just stopped for tea and sandwiches in a empty house that is being refurbished by a first time buyer in his twenties, I doubt he could even tell you who the NICEIC are or anything about the other schemes and part P.

The NICEIC are trading on past glories and a reputation that on
only the over sixties have heard of. The younger customers will go to website after a internet search, their primary concerns are if you work in their area, how easy you are to get in touch with and what you charge. There may be a collection of logos on the website, but they don't know what they are for.

In reality if the younger customers are not sure about how to chose an electrician they are more likely to go to a trusted trader type website and post their job requesting quotes, preferring to use someone who is endorsed by John Lewis et al, other customers posting reviews on a website or they may ask their parents.

It has been a complaint of mine that I have put directly to those capable of doing something about it that the scheme I am in uses the advertising budget on advertising to electricians in trade magazines, rather than potential customers of the enrolled electricians in home improvement magazines and the like. Constantly advertising to people who should be aware of the schemes rather than raising awareness with the general public is to me a waste of time and money. If the public were aware of the schemes then they may actually seek out enrolled electricians, benefiting both the electricians and in turn the schemes they are members of by boosting membership.

Andy B.
 09 October 2017 01:32 PM
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Alcomax

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Ah, for the good old days whereby if you weren't NICEIC, ECA & JIB you wouldn't even get on the tender list.....



I think the above was irony!

However, JIB is completely different from contractor registration schemes. It is for proof of individual competence in various electrical skills be it auto electrician or installation electrician or electrical fitter and many other.



The good old days weren't as good as how some people remember it.................................... The NICEIC are trading on past glories and a reputation that on only the over sixties have heard of



Ah, "glory" or "reputation" . Subjective. There was as much criticism of said organisation then as now, both by those in it and not. Equally a number were more than happy.

Nobody except contractors and specifiers new they existed. I would say that has not changed too much. All that has changed is that there are now many different brands and, though not mandatory, many feel they have no option but to be registered on a scheme.

Strip everything away and trading as an electrical entity has always been and still is , a free for all - except now most feel compelled to pay for the privilege.

What has changed is Joe public is likely to have heard something about "building regs and electrics".
 10 October 2017 08:52 AM
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psychicwarrior

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The OP issue: a result of an flawed system as it is and has been.

Of course its a free market and customers can choose to select on whatever basis they want (so long as it's not against the law - hmmm), however.... there is an added smell on the playing field with the implications of implementation in dealing with Part P and Building Control requirements.

[Rhetorically speaking] Just imagine if there was just one [publicly owned and not for profit] register (or scheme) of electricians...and it was mandatory to be on it to practice (oh! unless you are a DIY-er). What would be a customer's preferences then I wonder.
 10 October 2017 10:22 AM
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sparkingchip

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Yeah! More DIY.

The heading of this discussion is "Customer insists on NICEIC", in reality there isn't many customers who insist on electricians being a member of any scheme, in the back of their heads the customer know they should have some sort of certification and maybe the electrician should be registered in some way, but they don't really know the ins and outs of it.

However there are also the customers who think that by insisting they don't want any paerwork or certification they are due a discount on the cost of the work.

Andy B.
 10 October 2017 09:07 PM
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leckie

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Well the heading of the forum is "customer insists on NICEIC" but the OP also has said that the past does not concern a domestic installation.

Now it might be true that domestic consumers are indifferent to electricians being members of a trade body/scheme, etc., but non-domestic is rather different. Registration with one of the bodies is often a requirement, and often it is the NICEIC that are required. I have four large contracts (greater than £100k), sitting on my desk, all of which insist on NICEIC, no other body is mentioned. So make of at what you will, but the commercial reality is clear.
 13 October 2017 08:27 AM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 10184
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Currently electricians are concerning themselves with registration for work categories A1 and A2 industrial and domestic installations, as pointed out to me last night there is A3 as well.

Andy B.
 13 October 2017 10:31 AM
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davezawadi

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Really it is Architects who have no heard of the other bodies, and depend of standard wording which they have used for years. Many electricians have taken the word safety to be the most important in advertising (domestic particularly) and then mention the Electrical Safety Council and Electrical Safety First. The Electrical Safety Council is registered as having been changed in name from The NICEIC, a clear PR stunt to confuse people as to its status. It is taking something of a lead in the public area which should be being led by the IET however, and the leaflets are not bad in general.

-------------------------
David
BSc CEng MIET
david@ZawadiSoundAndLighting.co.uk
 13 October 2017 01:00 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 10184
Joined: 18 January 2003

Originally posted by: davezawadi

Really it is Architects who have no heard of the other bodies, and depend of standard wording which they have used for years. Many electricians have taken the word safety to be the most important in advertising (domestic particularly) and then mention the Electrical Safety Council and Electrical Safety First. The Electrical Safety Council is registered as having been changed in name from The NICEIC, a clear PR stunt to confuse people as to its status. It is taking something of a lead in the public area which should be being led by the IET however, and the leaflets are not bad in general.


The HMRC jumped on them for claiming charitable status and operating a business without charging VAT. So it was split into trading companies and a charity that owns the whole group of companies.

A franchise renewable energy company was set up that people could buy into, when the website was up and running it was claimed that clients of this franchise company could be reassured that they would have an excellent installation as the franchise company belonged to the ESC that had been established since 1956. This company traded in direct competition with companies that were paying the NICEIC to provide them with the required registrations to trade. A major conflict in interest that ceased when the franchise company was sold off.

Andy B.
IET » Wiring and the regulations » Customer Insists on NICEIC

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