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Topic Title: What to charge for EICR
Topic Summary: Is charging per circuit the best way to price for Periodic Inspection?
Created On: 31 August 2017 05:40 PM
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 31 August 2017 05:40 PM
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20did99

Posts: 12
Joined: 24 June 2012

I am interested to see read what everyone's opinion is on this topic.

I work for a nationwide testing and inspection company, carrying out EICR's on large scale buildings. I have been doing this for a long time and there is a distinct pattern that is emerging and that is price per circuit is getting lower.

I am hearing that their companies who can honestly say they can fully test a circuit for £4.50 - £6.00. My question is how? There are more and more compliance companies popping up, give the same BS that they can do it for this price and we do the job right. Not at £4.50 you are not.

So for them to charge that price they need to generate over a hundred tested circuits a day per man, to start making money. (Base on SME)

Reading past forums, it was evident that £10 - £15 per circuit was acceptable. So if it was possible to test one hundred circuits, surely they would have done it back then.

How far will the price go down and the output these companies need go up.When it comes to testing and inspection, you are not going to get the same quality of test at the prices mentioned above as to someone who is charging ten pounds a circuit.

In my opinion, there are too many duty holders or decision makers out there who have no understanding of the dangers of electricity and implications it can have when it starts to deteriorate. Pricing per circuit is not the correct way of doing it in 2017. Its two low and it is a real insult to people who want to do a good and honest job.

Edited: 31 August 2017 at 05:49 PM by 20did99
 31 August 2017 06:03 PM
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leckie

Posts: 4320
Joined: 21 November 2008

I suppose the cost is dependant on the EICR agreed specification and the extent and limitations.

I it a test of 25% of the circuits, IR testing excluded, only minimal quantities of low level items tested, etc., the cost will reflect that.

If the inspection is for a quick look around at low level items, limited accessing of accessories, DB's and equipment, and sampling down to 10%, that will also be reflected in the cost.

If the report consists of filling in the boxes, a summary saying something like " the installation requires a rewire", observations a described in minimal fashion and cannot be understood by the person receiving the report, that will also like to be reflected in the price.

If the company carrying out the report is hoping to make money on remedials........you get my drift by now I am sure. Nearly every report I have ever seen is complete tosh.

In the main the clients who employ these type of companies couldn't care less and the insurers just want someone to fill in the boxes and write SATISFACTORY. And someone to take some responsibility on their shoulders.

If you work for a large company and have been doing this type of work for a long time, how does your company operate and what do they expect form you?
 31 August 2017 06:15 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 9953
Joined: 18 January 2003

Is this retesting installations with a paper trail or working from scratch on a installation that doesn't have any records?

There is one hell of a difference.

Andy B
 31 August 2017 07:11 PM
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20did99

Posts: 12
Joined: 24 June 2012

The majority of the installation I test want a 100% test and inspection. Due to lack of knowledge and understanding on the duty holders part they do not know what goes into completing a condition report, their primary focus is test results, rather than I the inspection its self.

As a company we do offer effective monitoring, so when we have completed a full test and completed schematic drawings, we go back every year to sample test a certain areas of a building to make sure everything is sound.

I very rarely go to site and not be asked to test 100% of site.

To answer the 1st comment, we work in pairs on all our jobs and are usually asked to complete around 60 - 80 circuits per day depending on age and ultimately how it's been priced.
 31 August 2017 08:06 PM
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KFH

Posts: 533
Joined: 06 November 2010

I used to do a few EICRs mainly domestic for a couple of charities. I gave a price per house depending on its size varying from 1 bed terrace to farm houses with over 5 beds. As most of the work, for me, is inspection and documentation the number of circuits made only a small difference unless as with one I found a three phase supply and board, a generator changeover and four single phase CUs and that was just the farm house.

I could do two small houses a day with the larger farm houses, excluding the farm buildings, taking nearly two days plus time to write it up so someone could understand it. Normally there was no documentation on the install, often no circuit ID and I tested 100% of the circuits and up to 10% of accessories.

I quoted based on my daily rate less a bit for the volume of work they were giving me and accepted that I would have some winners and some losers. I did not do the remedials unless something urgent needed fixing.

The low prices you are giving are part of a rush to the bottom by people who do not understand what they are asking for and like PAT testing just want a sticker to say it is Ok so if something goes wrong they can show they have done their duty. Although I think if anything did go wrong the brown stuff may hit the roundy roundy thing but lessons would be learnt and actions taken so that it will not happen again until the next time.
 31 August 2017 10:08 PM
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whjohnson

Posts: 934
Joined: 24 January 2009

£150 for a dwelling with 8 ccts inc paperwork.

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 31 August 2017 10:16 PM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 1337
Joined: 19 January 2016

All the £4-£6 to test and inspect a circuit is folly and only encourages rushing and sloppy practices.
I can understand £4-£6 to test and commission a brand new circuit as you couid rattle through 65 of those a day no worries.
But to fully inspect and test existing often old antiquated wiring at 65 circuits per day just doesn't seem feasible to me
 31 August 2017 10:20 PM
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Fm

Posts: 1710
Joined: 24 August 2011

£500 a day
 31 August 2017 10:24 PM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 1337
Joined: 19 January 2016

I can get a landlord cert for £45

Bargain
 31 August 2017 10:24 PM
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leckie

Posts: 4320
Joined: 21 November 2008

Originally posted by: 20did99

The majority of the installation I test want a 100% test and inspection. Due to lack of knowledge and understanding on the duty holders part they do not know what goes into completing a condition report, their primary focus is test results, rather than I the inspection its self.



As a company we do offer effective monitoring, so when we have completed a full test and completed schematic drawings, we go back every year to sample test a certain areas of a building to make sure everything is sound.



I very rarely go to site and not be asked to test 100% of site.



To answer the 1st comment, we work in pairs on all our jobs and are usually asked to complete around 60 - 80 circuits per day depending on age and ultimately how it's been priced.


I might be misreading this post but I presume you are saying you are happy that you can complete this amount of work properly in that time span? but you think the industry standard is poor based on the pricing structure being per circuit? Have I got that right?

Well you are being asked to complete so many circuits a day, so your employer bases their price on so many minutes a circuit . Your average time is about 14 mins per circuit, per man, if I have done my sums right.

Your company is doing a brilliant job based on 100% inspection and test. If it's 100% then that tmeans there are no limitations to whatever the extent of the installation you are reporting on. So I presume every test listed in BS7671 is carried out as appropriate to an EICR and the inspection it also 100%. So that would mean you visually inspect all of the external installation at what ever height, and instead of accessing a percentage of the accessories and equipment, you actually access the lot. Every light and every socket? Now that I very much doubt. So probably you actually do sample inspections, say 10%, and record test results for every circuit? So if I am right that is not a 100% inspection and test. What does you specification generally say regarding limitations, does it say none?

I bet the other companies do not do that. They would typically put in lots of limitations on their spec, or just decide to add them onto the report when they issue it. But I might be totally wrong of course.

My own view is that the requirements should be discussed with the client, and the implication in terms of the extent and limitations explained. And make sure that the client is aware that the extent of the works and any agreed limitations are agreed with any interested parties. But that might be just a dream
 31 August 2017 10:40 PM
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Legh

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Joined: 17 December 2004

I put in a quote for a school a few years ago. A dozen DBs, lots of overhead SWAs . I didn't get the job. The company who got the work quoted £48K. Not unreasonable, I suppose, as this price included remedials and my quote didn't.

Legh

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 01 September 2017 09:22 AM
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leckie

Posts: 4320
Joined: 21 November 2008

Well Legh, I have heard everything now. A quote for the remedials included in the cost of the EICR before it has been carried out?

I have no idea how that could be done.

I think the way of arriving at a price for an EICR could be done in several ways, but as I have already said, the thing that sets out the parameters is the extent and limitations.

So assuming the specification is agreed, personally I would look at a few different factors. First I would list the DB's and the type, single or 3-phase, rating and quantity of circuits in each DB. I would count up final distribution circuit. Have a look at the building type, the wiring systems types, accessibility,etc. Then I might put in a time for testing each circuit type, a consideration of a time for each DB depending on size and type, and time for a visual inspection of the entire job, a time for inspection of parts to be accessed. I would note the total time down.

Then I might have a quick look at the overall job from a different perspective. So I might look at an area that a DB covered and make an assessment based on experience of how long I think this area would would take to test and inspect. Then repeat the process for each DB/section. Then I might cross check the two figures and see how they compare. Then you have to make a judgement, and arrive at a time you think is appropriate.

Next assess the time required to prepare the report, any covering letters and any client meetings required to go through the report. Add that lot up, and apply a labour rate. Add any vehicular costs, travel time, expenses, and any applicable overheads, MCD, etc. That would be getting me somewhere near to the quoted sum.

Then you either get the job or you dont.
 01 September 2017 09:40 AM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 1337
Joined: 19 January 2016

£48000 eicr at the national average of £4 per circuit test , that's 12000 circuits to test.
That's an awful lot of circuits in one building
 01 September 2017 09:43 AM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 1337
Joined: 19 January 2016

I know builders who within 30 seconds of arriving at a job site can suck their teeth real well and quote for an entire extension within minutes.
Perhaps electricians are getting good at it , just look at a big building , suck your teeth and quote £50,000 test and inspect without even setting foot in the building.
We have been doing it all wrong for decades
 01 September 2017 10:30 AM
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ebee

Posts: 6340
Joined: 02 December 2004

Talking about pricing.

I knew a guy 30 odd years ago fitted intruder alarms.
His price was cost of materials plus £100.
Didn`t matter if job took one day, two days or all week.

He used to get about 100% of jobs quoted.

Wheras I got about 80%.

Who was earning more each week?

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Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 01 September 2017 10:35 AM
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psychicwarrior

Posts: 550
Joined: 18 October 2010

Perhaps for some EICRs have just become a good income stream tick box exercise. As said above, if previous paper work is available and in good order, along with experience and familiarity with the installation, its a different exercise to something new.

Ive never approached it 'per circuit' - couldn't relate to that - and I see it as just a time thing to get done what's required based on my speed of work (careful, or is that slow!).
 01 September 2017 11:56 AM
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leckie

Posts: 4320
Joined: 21 November 2008

Well it depends on the size of the installation. If its a house or a few flats then easy. If it a large building with 12 large TPN DB's, you need a basis for pricing.

The real trick is to keep notes when you cary out works and job cost them afterwards.

So if you had an I&T of a building with 3 TPN DB's with say 30 SPN circuits and 12 TPN circuits, see what you allowed, check what it actually took, note what the paper work took. Next time for a similar type installation you should have a bit of idea how long its likely to take on a pro rata basis. The more effort you put into braking down your labour for each part of the work, and the more effort job costing afterwards, the more accurate you schedules of rates will become.

This is the basis for breaking work down to unit rates and should lead to accurate pricing and the producing of very quick quotations once this method has been through the mixer a few times.

Or you can stick your finger in your mouth and carry on guessing each job
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