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Topic Title: Electric vehicles
Topic Summary: Suppy and tax implictions
Created On: 10 August 2017 07:01 AM
Status: Read Only
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 10 August 2017 07:01 AM
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normcall

Posts: 8511
Joined: 15 January 2005

Interesting read:

https://theconversation.com/the-economic-black-hole-at-the-heart-of-the-shift-to-electric-vehicles-81959

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Norman
 10 August 2017 10:28 AM
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 15632
Joined: 13 August 2003

Humm, a little over-dramatic in parts perhaps...

The 25,410,360 houses and properties in England and Wales will need to be rewired.

Do you really need a complete re-wire just to add a single 32A circuit? I think not. Nor do I think that all of those properties will want their own EV charge points (10th floor flat? terrace with no off-street parking?)

One of those scenarios imagined all cars being electric by 2050, which could take peak demand from electric vehicles to 30 gigawatts. That is about half current peak electricity demand.

Presumably the scenario that had no demand management (e.g. off peak tariffs or load control via smart metering) or exchangeable battery systems, while all the other scenarios came up with far less dramatic outcomes?

There will also be a significant employment and economic loss as refineries close. This will affect the equivalent of 18,000 full-time jobs in Britain.

And jobs being created by battery manufacture, distribution & sales? Charge point installation & maintenance? not to mention a few extra power stations will need manning.

The ban will require a dramatic restructuring of the tax system

Given the mess the current tax system is already in, a good overhaul (and simplification) is overdue anyway.

- Andy.
 10 August 2017 09:09 PM
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jcm256

Posts: 2299
Joined: 01 April 2006

I will not be around in 2040 to see the fun, all those motorbikes on the road it would be a brave Government to ban the bikers. Anyhow if I can afford it my next car might be an EV, and living in the countryside will use my portable 4Kw diesel generator free of tax (Agricultural diesel) red diesel to charge it. Will they put tax on electricity for everyone to compensate for the loss of fuel revenue? It is never ending the erection of dreaded wind turbines, new ones all the time and the size of them lying at the docks, what a miserable sight every mountain scenic view destroyed and for what a few % as shown on the electricity bill where the purchase their electricity.
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jcm
 11 August 2017 03:39 PM
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Delbot321

Posts: 177
Joined: 06 November 2012

It was an interesting read.

It takes no account that the very few people would run the battery down everyday therefore it would only need a partial charge at best. Most people seem to think they need to plug the car in every time they stop, they don't stop at every fuel station to fill up a bit so why keep plugging in?

It also makes you realise that on longer journeys instead of having motorway services to fill up you will charge your car with a fast charger (probably at a premium rate) while you have a coffee and use the facilities. Currently vehicles have around 200 mile limit on a charge, even in good conditions travelling at an average of 60mph that's 3 hours driving before you need to charge up by which time the driver will need a rest too. Some of the fast chargers can get the vehicle back to 80% pretty fast which should then be fine for another couple of hours.
 11 August 2017 05:38 PM
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mapj1

Posts: 9107
Joined: 22 July 2004

The article makes some good points, but tends to focus on this as if it is a pure legislation issue, and it is far more complex than that - regardless of policy, oil will slowly become rarer and more expensive, and not all use of it can easily be replaced by electrons. It also focusses on the jobs and revenue that will be lost, without considering that new ones will be created and needed respectively.
Its not clear to me that we wont have swarms of self driving cars moving stuff about with either no-one in them or buses moving unattended school children or something.
It will be interesting, but whatever we plan for, it wont happen quite that way.
Right now the economics favour the early adopters, it won't always be so.

It is salutatory to chart the UK's transition from oil and gas exporter to importer over the last 15 years or so.
Of course, at some point all other countries currently producing more than they consume will deplete their resources until they can't export either. Then it gets more interesting . (as so often the UK is one of the first, but as the word burns a cubic mil or so of oil each year, others will surely follow.)
Article with some nice figures and charts

-------------------------
regards Mike


Edited: 11 August 2017 at 05:45 PM by mapj1
 11 August 2017 10:29 PM
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justinneedham

Posts: 86
Joined: 21 January 2005

"Will need to be rewired.", - clearly the author doesn't really understand what that really means.
But disregarding that, an extra 32A with the dumb chargers we still have today can be a real problem, and that situation has to change fast.

There are more and more all-electric houses out there. With the demise of gas, rise of the heat-pumps, instant showers, and trendy induction hobs, there are plenty of houses on 100A supplies where the answer to "Can I have a 32A EV charger" might well have to be "No". -The inventive interpretation of "Diversity" can only go so far.

When will we see easy to fit Internet connected EV chargers with a fail-safe current clamp to prevent supply overload? - The market is already needing them.

Arguably instant showers will be going out, so that helps in some cases. - Every time nowadays that I see someone with a builder in, busily removing the airing cupboard to make way for a Combi boiler, I point out to the householder that it's probably a mistake.
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