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Topic Title: West London Fire
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Created On: 14 June 2017 10:32 AM
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 18 June 2017 09:16 AM
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jcm256

Posts: 2299
Joined: 01 April 2006

We as engineers talk more about enclosing electrics in a metal box to prevent fire but house people in a plastic box. In this country we do not seem as concerned about the later problem as they do in the United States and other countries. And we now suffer for our apathy.
 18 June 2017 01:20 PM
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mikejumper

Posts: 2391
Joined: 14 December 2006

Originally posted by: jcm256
We as engineers talk more about enclosing electrics in a metal box to prevent fire but house people in a plastic box.

Indeed.
 18 June 2017 02:36 PM
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John Peckham

Posts: 8751
Joined: 23 April 2005

I saw Philip Hammond the Chanchelor say on TV this morning to a question from Andrew Mar why were the type of panels that were used permitted in the U.K. when they were banned in other countries. He said he thought they were banned here also.

I read in the Times this morning a quote from a Professor expert in cladding who has written a book about the subject that the cladding used did not comply with Building Regulations.

So to add to my list of questions above.

1. Why are these panels still being made and sold in the U.K. when they are non-compliant?

2. Who specified or agreed to non-compliant materials being used?

3. Who ordered the materials?

4. Who installed non-compliant materials?

5. Who supervised the installation?

6. Who inspected and approved the works as being compliant, the LABC or private building inspectors?

7. What is the relationship between these parties in terms of financial, friendships, members of golf clubs and secret societies, corporate "hospitality"?

Once this is known they can all come down the police station with their solicitors( if they wish) and be interviewed under caution after their offices and homes have been searched.

No cover ups, no sickly weasel words no political interference get at the truth!

Anyone want to input a comment on the DPC about banning combustible consumer units in all premises not just dwellings, or specifying LSZOH cable every where or the use of metallic cable fixings?

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 18 June 2017 05:11 PM
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davidwalker2

Posts: 290
Joined: 29 April 2009

John,

Notwithstanding that the panels are reported as being non-compliant in this situation, I understand from the Times article that they are compliant in blocks up to 18 metres tall. Interesting that the building inspectors reports do not appear to be available.

David
 18 June 2017 08:19 PM
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OMS

Posts: 22329
Joined: 23 March 2004

So many experts - so little knowledge

Even Mr Khan knows exactly what happened - which save PMTM the cost of a public enquiry

The only sensible thing I've heard today is the ex gratia payments going to a bank account - which should rapidly determine who exactly lived there

Now all we need to do is wait for the Chariridee single to come out

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 18 June 2017 08:44 PM
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leckie

Posts: 4155
Joined: 21 November 2008

You don't always need expert knowledge.

My first post on this mentioned boxer George Groves , the bloke Carl Froch stopped. There was a boxing club within the tower building, and that's where he trained. I heard him interviewed on radio 4 at about 6am on the morning after the fire occurred. Now he would have little knowledge, but he said that he had been to the building after the refurb and mentioned that there was new cladding. He almost innocently said "I hope it's nothing to do with the cladding".

So it seemed suspect to him, a total layman. And he will not be far off the truth.

And incendiary, a fridge full of butane or propane,

Open windows,

A combustible outer shell,

Doors probably jammed open,

A huge inferno,

Lots of dead people.

Next time nobody will stay put, they will flee, rightly or wrongly that is what will happen.

Defend in place has been made killed off by the dead, a proactive approach will need to be included into projects.

Oh, and TM is finished.
 18 June 2017 09:46 PM
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Fm

Posts: 1679
Joined: 24 August 2011

Originally posted by: John Peckham

I saw Philip Hammond the Chanchelor say on TV this morning to a question from Andrew Mar why were the type of panels that were used permitted in the U.K. when they were banned in other countries. He said he thought they were banned here also.



I read in the Times this morning a quote from a Professor expert in cladding who has written a book about the subject that the cladding used did not comply with Building Regulations.



So to add to my list of questions above.



1. Why are these panels still being made and sold in the U.K. when they are non-compliant?



2. Who specified or agreed to non-compliant materials being used?



3. Who ordered the materials?



4. Who installed non-compliant materials?



5. Who supervised the installation?



6. Who inspected and approved the works as being compliant, the LABC or private building inspectors?



7. What is the relationship between these parties in terms of financial, friendships, members of golf clubs and secret societies, corporate "hospitality"?



Once this is known they can all come down the police station with their solicitors( if they wish) and be interviewed under caution after their offices and homes have been searched.



No cover ups, no sickly weasel words no political interference get at the truth!



Anyone want to input a comment on the DPC about banning combustible consumer units in all premises not just dwellings, or specifying LSZOH cable every where or the use of metallic cable fixings?



Who keeps saying equipment is non compliant?
Next you will be saying the plastic consumer units helped fan the fire

Get a grip, ignore the journalists. Wait for the facts.
 18 June 2017 10:12 PM
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OMS

Posts: 22329
Joined: 23 March 2004

And most of all ignore the social justice warriors making this a political issue

It can be a police matter or a public inquiry - but first it needs forensic investigation and analysis by subject matter experts

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 18 June 2017 11:00 PM
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ebee

Posts: 6305
Joined: 02 December 2004

Well something obviously went very wrong here.
Those poor people.
Whether current standards.
Non adherence to standards.
Turning a blind eye.
DIY and pro additions and alterations.
Missmanaged inspections and supervision.
Chasing the bottom line via lowest tender for jobs.
All probably contributed.
Bypassing of fire doors etc etc.
Perhaps a catologue of errors with tragice consequences.

Whether you like her or not I dont think Teresa May can be blammed for much of it. As for her reaction to it damned if you do damned if you dont.

Get every one in court and get to the nubb of it.

What a nightmare

If John Peckham does not head the enquiry Id like to see him riding shotgun . Not precluding OMS and others of that ilk.

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 19 June 2017 08:59 AM
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potential

Posts: 1617
Joined: 01 February 2007

Originally posted by: ebee
.........................


If John Peckham does not head the enquiry Id like to see him riding shotgun . Not precluding OMS and others of that ilk.


What?
After making statements on a public forum like this?
get real!
 19 June 2017 09:25 AM
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rocknroll

Posts: 9534
Joined: 03 October 2005

That's the problem with tragic events and loss of life, all the so called experts and their dogs come out of the woodwork, from professors, electrical contractors to ex postal workers and ex fire service employees, even a boxer who is an expert in cladding put his name in the frame, you couldn't make it up.

I am sure the team of expert investigators appointed will carry out there task admirably and sort out the jigsaw puzzle it is at the moment and not be required to report back to the myriad of forums of experts.

Regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 19 June 2017 09:36 AM
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OMS

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Joined: 23 March 2004

If John Peckham does not head the enquiry Id like to see him riding shotgun . Not precluding OMS and others of that ilk


Not in a million years for me, thanks

I have an opinion on what I think might have happened, but it's just an opinion based on some knowledge of fire precautions in buildings and a quick look at some publicly available scene footage - as I said, we need forensic examination of the events, materials, actions and behaviours both before, during and after the fire by relevant subject matter experts - which is what is happening.

I have no doubt that the cause and effect will be fully established (as it normally is in any other similar set of circumstances) without any input from internet fora

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 19 June 2017 10:15 AM
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John Peckham

Posts: 8751
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Yes we must wait for the outcome of the investigation by the Forensic Science Service and the Met. Police and any court cases before we know the truth. Given recents events and the normal workload in London the Met Police detective force are at full stretch and I hear that they are pulling in experienced retired detectives on contract to assist.

The announced Public Enquiry will take place after any prosecutions so we may get more detail from that plus any recommendations.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 19 June 2017 10:22 AM
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acsinuk

Posts: 204
Joined: 30 June 2007

Problem is the blame culture. Engineering wise non flammable materials should be used and NOT flame retardant materials.
Originally asbestos material which if prepared and stabilised safely is the ideal material for piping /conduits in high rise buildings were used.
BUT H&S without any evidence that the stabilised asbestos is causing anyone harm; manage to convince us that all asbestos products regardless should be removed WITHOUT GETTING THE ENGINEERS APPROVAL of a viable alternative. Legalism is surely to blame
 19 June 2017 10:45 AM
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potential

Posts: 1617
Joined: 01 February 2007

Originally posted by: acsinuk

Problem is the blame culture. ................




There are very few simple solutions to complex problems and the blame culture assumes there are.

Far too many people voice their opinion (the blame culture) on a subject they know precious little about, i.e. science.

Take for instance the molecule Ozone.
Most people have no idea that it is composed of 3 oxygen atoms.
 19 June 2017 12:05 PM
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rocknroll

Posts: 9534
Joined: 03 October 2005

Unfortunately, as is often the case the news outlets have moved their camps to outside the rehab centre where that druggie Ant was admitted, with thousands of people wishing him well with messages and gifts and not a thought for the unfortunate, this tragedy will probably only pop up now and again when the news outlets have some spots that need filling, such is life.

Regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 19 June 2017 12:07 PM
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OMS

Posts: 22329
Joined: 23 March 2004

It is the job of the responsible person to manage the complexity (or appoint specialists to do so on their behalf) - a function introduced under the Regulatory Reform (Fire) Order by John Prescott as Deputy PM via the Office of the Deputy PM (lest anyone forget in the current climate of moon howling)

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 19 June 2017 01:23 PM
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OMS

Posts: 22329
Joined: 23 March 2004

Originally posted by: rocknroll

Unfortunately, as is often the case the news outlets have moved their camps to outside the rehab centre where that druggie Ant was admitted, with thousands of people wishing him well with messages and gifts and not a thought for the unfortunate, this tragedy will probably only pop up now and again when the news outlets have some spots that need filling, such is life.


Regards


I thought the meeja were all over at Finsbury Park interviewing people - or is that all part of life in a big city now ?

I hope they are working hard to discover what football shirt the driver was wearing - we demand to know

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 19 June 2017 01:41 PM
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rocknroll

Posts: 9534
Joined: 03 October 2005

Originally posted by: OMS

Originally posted by: rocknroll

Unfortunately, as is often the case the news outlets have moved their camps to outside the rehab centre where that druggie Ant was admitted, with thousands of people wishing him well with messages and gifts and not a thought for the unfortunate, this tragedy will probably only pop up now and again when the news outlets have some spots that need filling, such is life. [IMG][/IMG]

Regards


I thought the meeja were all over at Finsbury Park interviewing people - or is that all part of life in a big city now ?

I hope they are working hard to discover what football shirt the driver was wearing - we demand to know

OMS


LOL yes they are moving about lately, I would think there is a permanent camp at Finsbury Park which a bit of hot bed, the reality is we are under attack and its only a matter of time before people start taking matters in their own hands which is unfortunate.

Regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 19 June 2017 03:48 PM
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jonny705

Posts: 100
Joined: 26 September 2015

Well I know this is a bit off topic ,but I am in the process of insulating my van , so have looked at all the possibilities regarding material types.

There was a new multi-layer insulation introduced a while back , ACTIS was probably the most well known.
We fitted it many years ago to a pitched roof extension we had built ,as they wanted the pitch as a feature, it was all passed off by building regs, as at the time it was apparently as good as normal really thick insulation.

It now transpires that it isn't very good at all , and does not meet the claims it supposed to have been tested to regarding insulating values and passed.
I think depending on where you happen to be , and how strict you BCO is , it can still be used and in others it cannot-it's certainly not black and white.

It also has been proven the tests it passed to proof its efficiency were not independent but financed by themselves.
I know it fails the British installation test for example, but this sort of thing could have happened regarding the fire retardant qualities of this cladding

just as the multi-foil insulation has been fitted to a LOT of buildings -especially old /historical type ones it suits with the install benefits, and the worst case situation is the lack of predicted insulation values and heat loss the worst that will happen.

The same sort of misunderstanding /lack of clarification could have happened to these insulating panels regarding their fire resistance levels, but similar parallels could exist, as they got the specs wrong for the above example, and loads has been fitted that potentially is not compliant.
IET » Wiring and the regulations » West London Fire

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