IET logo
 
IET
Decrease font size
Increase font size
Topic Title: Student Accommodation Metering
Topic Summary: Part L Compliance - Metering
Created On: 21 April 2017 10:28 AM
Status: Read Only
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
Search Topic Search Topic
Topic Tools Topic Tools
View similar topics View similar topics
View topic in raw text format. Print this topic.
 21 April 2017 10:28 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



GR1981

Posts: 23
Joined: 29 February 2016

Hi gents

Hoping someone might be able to help. All opinions welcomed.

I'm up to speed on Part L2 metering requirements i.e. in line with CIBSE TM39, but on the domestic side I'm struggling to find clarity.

Basically we're working on a block of flats for students, and the rent the client will charge will include all utility bills. As a result, the client only needs the main incoming meter for billing purposes. There is no need for separate sub-metering of each flat.

If this was a commercial installation, we would be using split boards with built in meter, but as this is domestic/residential, do we need anything above and beyond the main electricity meter?

I know it would be good practice to put them in but as far as I can tell, there's no requirement under Part L1 to put sub-meters in.

Can anyone tell me if I've missed something?

Thanks.
 21 April 2017 02:07 PM
User is online View Users Profile Print this message



geoffsd

Posts: 1787
Joined: 15 June 2010

I don't think you have missed anything.

L2 does not apply to dwellings.
 24 April 2017 01:07 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



GR1981

Posts: 23
Joined: 29 February 2016

Hi Geoff

thanks for that. Just wanted to check I wasn't going mad by not seeing anything in L1.
 24 April 2017 02:24 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



burn

Posts: 250
Joined: 06 June 2003

Sorry to disappoint you but: -

Extract from L2A page 29 - "Building exclusively containing rooms for residential purposes such as nursing homes, student accommodation, and similar are not dwellings and as such this Approved Document L2A applies"

The fact the landlord charges rent probably makes it commercial.

burn
 24 April 2017 03:28 PM
User is online View Users Profile Print this message



geoffsd

Posts: 1787
Joined: 15 June 2010

Originally posted by: burn

Extract from L2A page 29 - "Building exclusively containing rooms for residential purposes such as nursing homes, student accommodation, and similar are not dwellings and as such this Approved Document L2A applies"

Ok.
It does say that but could you please point to the same in the actual Building Regulations?
It should not be up to the Approved Documents to redefine words.

Would the fact that the OP's building is not new (if, indeed, it is not new) exempt it from L2?

The fact the landlord charges rent probably makes it commercial.

All landlords charge rent so I don't see that being a criterion.
 24 April 2017 04:41 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



GR1981

Posts: 23
Joined: 29 February 2016

Thanks for all the replies.

To clarify, for this project the building was previously an office block and is now being converted into student accommodation. In this instance, each flat contains a bedroom, dining area/kitchenette and a bathroom. As a result I think this may fall nearer the definition of self contained unit rather than residential rooms, which would make it L1B rather than L2B.

I suppose it'll be a discussion to have with building control to figure out which it falls under.

Regardless I think you have answered my original question.

Thanks.
 24 April 2017 04:58 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



OMS

Posts: 22437
Joined: 23 March 2004

In this instance, each flat contains a bedroom, dining area/kitchenette and a bathroom. As a result I think this may fall nearer the definition of self contained unit rather than residential rooms, which would make it L1B rather than L2B.


I'd say that they almost certainly aren't dwellings - so L2B seems the right way to go

Meter per floor (or an area up to 500m2) would certainly be "reasonable provision" IMO

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 24 April 2017 05:08 PM
User is online View Users Profile Print this message



geoffsd

Posts: 1787
Joined: 15 June 2010

dwelling
[
noun formal

a house, flat, or other place of residence.


Is there anything in the actual Building Regulations which would confirm that the guidance in the Approved Document has not exceeded its remit?
 24 April 2017 06:12 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



OMS

Posts: 22437
Joined: 23 March 2004

"dwelling" includes a dwelling-house and a flat;

"dwelling-house" does not include a flat or a building containing a flat;

"flat" means separate and self-contained premises constructed or adapted for use for residential purposes and forming part of a building from some other part of which it is divided horizontally;

"institution" means an institution (whether described as a hospital, home, school or other similar establishment) which is used as living accommodation for, or for the treatment, care or maintenance of persons -
(a) suffering from disabilities due to illness or old age or other physical or mental incapacity, or

(b) under the age of five years,

where such persons sleep on the premises;

(2) In these Regulations "public building" means a building consisting of or containing -

(a) a theatre, public library, hall or other place of public resort;
.
(b) a school or other educational establishment not exempted from the operation of building regulations by virtue of section 4(1)(a) of the Act(7); or
.
(c) a place of public worship;

"room for residential purposes" means a room, or a suite of rooms, which is not a dwelling-house or a flat and which is used by one or more persons to live and sleep and includes a room in a hostel, an hotel, a boarding house, a hall of residence or a residential home, but does not include a room in a hospital, or other similar establishment, used for patient accommodation;

So, from the above, it's not a dwelling, nor a dwelling house, nor an institution nor a public building (ie a school) - it's a room for residential purposes - ie a halls of residence

Previously the building was offices so now it's undergoing a material change of use - its also undergoing a material alteration and alterations to controlled services. From the definitions above, a dwellings is "self contained" whereas rooms for residential purposes are not. Therefore, if you create those rooms from a material change of use, the L2B is going to apply

From the above, I think we could be fairly certain that a means of complying with Part L2B would be to provide metering in accordance with CIBSE TM39

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 24 April 2017 06:31 PM
User is online View Users Profile Print this message



geoffsd

Posts: 1787
Joined: 15 June 2010

Originally posted by: GarethRowley

In this instance, each flat contains a bedroom, dining area/kitchenette and a bathroom.



Originally posted by: OMS

"dwelling" includes a dwelling-house and a flat;
 24 April 2017 06:55 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



OMS

Posts: 22437
Joined: 23 March 2004

But clearly not self contained so clearly "a room for residential purposes" and not a flat

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 24 April 2017 06:59 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



Fm

Posts: 1750
Joined: 24 August 2011

I would be looking to get the metering integrated into the BMS.
 24 April 2017 07:32 PM
User is online View Users Profile Print this message



geoffsd

Posts: 1787
Joined: 15 June 2010

Originally posted by: OMS

But clearly not self contained so clearly "a room for residential purposes" and not a flat




Originally posted by: geoffsd

dwelling
noun formal
a house, flat, or other place of residence.


https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/dwelling





Is there anything in the actual Building Regulations which would confirm that the guidance in the Approved Document has not exceeded its remit?
 25 April 2017 12:31 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



AJJewsbury

Posts: 16120
Joined: 13 August 2003

a house, flat, or other place of residence.

But the whole block isn't a flat, but many - more akin to an entire street than a single dwelling. If you took the usual domestic approach you'd have at least one meter per dwelling (e.g. one per 20m2 or whatever in this case) whereas taking OMS's approach means only one meter per 500m2, if allowed, which would seem to be a significant saving.
- Andy.
 25 April 2017 02:24 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



OMS

Posts: 22437
Joined: 23 March 2004

Originally posted by: geoffsd

Originally posted by: OMS

But clearly not self contained so clearly "a room for residential purposes" and not a flat


Originally posted by: geoffsd

dwelling

noun formal

a house, flat, or other place of residence.


https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/dwelling

Is there anything in the actual Building Regulations which would confirm that the guidance in the Approved Document has not exceeded its remit?


Well, I quoted from yer axual Building Regulations above

I gave you the correct interpretation of the Building Regulations definitions that are widely available both within the AD's and other sources

If you accept that a student bedsit is actually "a room for residential purposes" - one of many in a communal block, rather than a dwelling then I'm pretty certain that my interpretation of AD L2B does not exceed the remit required by the Regulations

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 25 April 2017 09:05 PM
User is online View Users Profile Print this message



geoffsd

Posts: 1787
Joined: 15 June 2010

Well, I quoted from yer axual Building Regulations above


I did not realise your quotes were from the BRs.
Could you please supply a link or section reference number?

I gave you the correct interpretation of the Building Regulations definitions that are widely available both within the AD's and other sources


That is my point.
I am not interested in interpretations.

If you accept that a student bedsit is actually "a room for residential purposes" - one of many in a communal block, rather than a dwelling then I'm pretty certain that my interpretation of AD L2B does not exceed the remit required by the Regulations


I do accept that it is for residential purposes which the dictionary classes a dwelling.
Now we have your interpretation of a guidance document and other sources.

Does it say this in the BRs?

The OP's premises are NOT bedsits; they have bathrooms.
He calls them flats. They sound like studio flats.
"dwelling" includes a dwelling-house and a flat;
 26 April 2017 09:19 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



OMS

Posts: 22437
Joined: 23 March 2004

Originally posted by: geoffsd

Well, I quoted from yer axual Building Regulations above


I did not realise your quotes were from the BRs.

Could you please supply a link or section reference number?

Well the Statutory instrument is readily available - Google will find it


I gave you the correct interpretation of the Building Regulations definitions that are widely available both within the AD's and other sources


That is my point.

I am not interested in interpretations.

Well, it's not my interpretation, it is the legal interpretation of the SI

If you accept that a student bedsit is actually "a room for residential purposes" - one of many in a communal block, rather than a dwelling then I'm pretty certain that my interpretation of AD L2B does not exceed the remit required by the Regulations


I do accept that it is for residential purposes which the dictionary classes a dwelling.

Forget the dictionary - read the SI

Now we have your interpretation of a guidance document and other sources.

Not my interpretation - the interpretation

Does it say this in the BRs?

Yes, if you read them in the entirety


The OP's premises are NOT bedsits; they have bathrooms.

So ? - read the definition of "room for residential purposes" - hint it can be more than one room

He calls them flats. They sound like studio flats.

They sound like student bedrooms with en suite bathrooms to me


"dwelling" includes a dwelling-house and a flat;


Indeed it does - read the rest of the definitions



If these are actually flats (ie separate and self contained) then that would be unusual for them to be reserved solely for students a whole raft of other legislation is applicable

They are not dwellings - they are clearly rooms for residential purposes - even the SI says so:

and which is used by one or more persons to live and sleep and includes a room in a hostel, an hotel, a boarding house, a hall of residence or a residential home, but does not include a room in a hospital, or other similar establishment, used for patient accommodation;


My emphasis

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 26 April 2017 01:39 PM
User is online View Users Profile Print this message



geoffsd

Posts: 1787
Joined: 15 June 2010

Accepting all you write -

Your quotes:

"dwelling" includes a dwelling-house and a flat;

"dwelling-house" does not include a flat or a building containing a flat;

"flat" means separate and self-contained premises constructed or adapted for use for residential purposes and forming part of a building from some other part of which it is divided horizontally;

"room for residential purposes" means a room, or a suite of rooms, which is not a dwelling-house or a flat and which is used by one or more persons to live and sleep and includes a room in a hostel, an hotel, a boarding house, a hall of residence or a residential home, but does not include a room in a hospital, or other similar establishment, used for patient accommodation;


L2 excludes "dwellings"
so are the subsequent definitions relevant?

If the buildings in question are flats, then the definition of 'room for residential purposes' is not relevant.

A flat is a dwelling.
 26 April 2017 03:10 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



OMS

Posts: 22437
Joined: 23 March 2004

OK - a flat is a dwelling - the BR's state this

If you think the OP is building self contained flats in the definition of the Building Regs, then fine - it's a block of flats, to which various other legal instruments apply

If however, you think the OP is referring to a block which contains "rooms for residential purposes" - ie student accommodation AKA halls of residence then clearly they are not dwellings by definition

L2 excludes dwellings I agree

The definitions are entirely relevant

I guess I'd like the OP's confirmation, or a copy of the planning consent which will define the "use class" to be sure, but I'm pretty convinced that we are not talking about "flats" by definition (despite the OP describing them as such) and are discussing "rooms for residential purposes" to which Part L2 will apply as clearly, they are not dwellings - in fact the OP clearly describes the services arrangement for them - they are clearly not self contained (ie independent services as an example)

The planning consent would be quite clear - they are either:

C2 Residential institutions - Residential care homes, hospitals, nursing homes, boarding schools, residential colleges and training centres.

or

C3 Dwellinghouses - this class is formed of 3 parts: ?C3(a) covers use by a single person or a family (a couple whether married or not, a person related to one another with members of the family of one of the couple to be treated as members of the family of the other), an employer and certain domestic employees (such as an au pair, nanny, nurse, governess, servant, chauffeur, gardener, secretary and personal assistant), a carer and the person receiving the care and a foster parent and foster child.

Worth noting however, a flat which is occupied by a single person or family also falls within Class C3. Each flat in a block is treated as a separate unit for planning purposes.

Does that help clarify ?

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
Statistics

New here?


See Also:



FuseTalk Standard Edition v3.2 - © 1999-2017 FuseTalk Inc. All rights reserved.

..