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Topic Title: 2391 exam
Topic Summary: Not the usual type of exam questions
Created On: 16 March 2006 11:33 PM
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 16 March 2006 11:33 PM
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ady1

Posts: 766
Joined: 19 April 2005

Having studied like mad for my 2391 exam and completed 10 past papers and generally found them all similar type of questions.
I was dissapointed today when my exam paper was not like the others. The paper suited someone who is already testing and inspecting installations, as a large proportion of the marks were for explaining in full, how to perform particular tests. Even more annoying - the kind of tests your not really supposed to do ie, Zs on flourescent lights during a PIR in a working factory.
Feel a bit cheated really - I've learnt all the calculations, formulas and equations and didnt need any of them !
Gutted
Only probably passed now....
Anyone else just done the same paper and feel the same way ?

Regards
Ady

-------------------------
Resistance is futile.
 18 March 2006 08:00 PM
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markwinter

Posts: 86
Joined: 11 March 2006

I have just done the 2360 part 2 fault diagnosis and commissioning exam and revised like mad for cable calcs and Zs calculations,yet not one apeard!! not sure i've passed there was loads of commissioning questions that were worded a little different to past papers which under exam conditions i panicked,now i have 6 - 8 weeks of worry wondering if i've passed or failed.

I know its not the 2391 but i know how you feel bud!!!
 24 March 2006 12:48 PM
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deleted_escubados

Posts: 7
Joined: 27 January 2006

Hi Ady,
I heard it was a major departure from previous formats. I had a similar thing many years ago with an electronics Exam, change of question format and much stuff not covered in the course. Not on really, unless the centres are informed and given due notice, as I am sure they base the course around past papers to some extent.
I don't suppose you have a copy of the paper you could let me have?
If you do perhaps you could contact me escubados@homecall.co.uk

Good luck, anyway.
 15 September 2006 05:07 PM
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deleted_billy20006

Posts: 1
Joined: 15 September 2006

does any body know where i can take installtion diagnosis exam as a external student
 26 September 2006 07:24 PM
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intrinsic4225B

Posts: 1623
Joined: 30 September 2004

Originally posted by: ady1

The paper suited someone who is already testing and inspecting installations, as a large proportion of the marks were for explaining in full, how to perform particular tests.


I don't quite understand the above statement - the City & Guilds 2391-1 examination is for experienced electricians and other electrotechnical operatives to further their skills in inspection and testing. As such, it is expected that those persons should on completion of the course of study have a detailled knowledge of how to perform the tests required by BS7671.

What did you think the purpose of the course was?

Regards,

Ross Currie TMIET
 27 September 2006 02:37 PM
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gkenyon

Posts: 4478
Joined: 06 May 2002

Ross,

I think I agree with you on that one - the examiners when "passing" you for the course, are effectively saying you're competent to a specific level.

This includes being safe - so they need to be certain you know what you're doing and why you're doing it.

-------------------------
Eur Ing Graham Kenyon CEng MIET TechIOSH
 27 September 2006 08:11 PM
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intrinsic4225B

Posts: 1623
Joined: 30 September 2004

Graham,

I must agree wholeheartedly with the points you raise in your last post.

A worrying trend that is observed both in this thread and often on these forums in general is that persons appear to believe that the way to pass exams is to do endless past papers so that one might be able to answer questions in the examination in parrot fashion - the initial complaint on this thread was the the paper was not like past papers previously completed.

This sometimes appears as it may be the semi-official policy of some training organisations.

It is my belief that persons should be taught from first principles, such that they may apply that knowledge to any situation which they may encounter in examinations or indeed in the real world. It is often seen through questions raised on these forums in general that such knowledge is often at best patchy.

Regards,

Ross Currie TMIET
 27 September 2006 10:05 PM
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gkenyon

Posts: 4478
Joined: 06 May 2002

Originally posted by: intrinsic4225B
A worrying trend that is observed both in this thread and often on these forums in general is that persons appear to believe that the way to pass exams is to do endless past papers so that one might be able to answer questions in the examination in parrot fashion - the initial complaint on this thread was the the paper was not like past papers previously completed.
I do have a bit of sympathy with the candidates, though, because of "exam technique".

It is very difficult sometimes to understand what the examiners are after, especially the way some questions are worded. This is a general criticism of examinations in general, not specifically C&G.

From what I understand, in terms of the 2391, is that many of the recent past papers before March 2006 are similarly worded, for reasons discussed in these fora since March, whereas post-March 2006 the wording has changed. Hence, if you try and get used to the "exam technique" for 2391 using past-papers, you may well have the wrong technique.

How we sort this conundrum out is of course a difficult issue, because without C&G producing new practice questions, probably at great expense, I don't really know how it can be addressed until March 06 onwards papers are available for revision.

But - if you know your stuff well - should this really be too much of a problem ?

-------------------------
Eur Ing Graham Kenyon CEng MIET TechIOSH

Edited: 27 September 2006 at 10:06 PM by gkenyon
 19 October 2006 10:33 PM
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Westie38

Posts: 10
Joined: 19 October 2006

Sirs,
Whilst I agree that the way to pass an examination is not by learning everything parrot fashion, I am sure that once an electrician is competent in inspection and testing, he or she adopts a process of testing which is repetitive and eventually becomes a technique. I have been an approved electrician for over 30 years and I have just taken my 2391 examination, but the tuition given on my particular course seemed to be driven by learning parrot fashion with lots of handouts to digest (not literally).
I feel I am an extremly competent electrician, but regardless whether I have passed or not will not make me less competent, if I've failed I believe it is due to me not being comfortable with exams. The fact that this is a closed book examination is detrimental to its success as no electrician can have all the facts, figures and tables in their heads, and at some stage may have to refer to BS7671 etc, just as electrical designers have to. There is no shame in referring to a reference book if it gets the desired result. This examination, in turn may not dissuade less competent electricians from installing systems, who may not even bother to inspect and test installations.
Well that's got that of my chest...
 10 November 2006 09:59 PM
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deleted_acadennis

Posts: 1
Joined: 10 November 2006

How can I have the 10 exam past papers - C&G 2391 too
Please let me know at : acadennis@hotmail.com
Thank you
 30 December 2006 09:20 AM
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deleted_pauls

Posts: 8
Joined: 30 December 2006

I start my 2391 course for ten weeks in January, friends of mine sat the exam in Decemeber 2006 and said that the paper was vastly different from the earlier papers they revised on!!!

If anyone has any papers - could you e-mail them to me at p.sheill@ntlworld.com

Thanks
 13 March 2007 01:27 PM
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deleted_kuldeep18

Posts: 3
Joined: 12 March 2007

hi,
could you send me the 10 past papers please and answers,
i would be very grateful
kuldeep
 11 May 2007 08:23 AM
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ordsallboy

Posts: 2
Joined: 11 May 2007

Tell you what mate I'm fed up. because I'm resiiting the exam in 4wks and I don't know where to start? I thought I passed. Every other electrical exam you got a pass, credit or distinction. If you put six sparks in a room and give them a problem to solve they'll all come up with different RIGHT! answers. The tutor that taught me the course had to hold his hands sometimes and say GOOD POINT! I'm not sure about that? . . I've passed the practical but have no clue other than doing past papers in how to prepare for this resit. What did I answer wrong? and did I fail by two marks etc or was my tutor a bricklayer cum spark. I had to resit my 16th edition coz it was apparently out of date and then take the 2391 and now the resit? . . costing £1100. I'm annoyed because I may again fail this exam again? My friend passed in 2005 and when I discussed the paper with him I realised I was far more informed than him. As far as I'm concerned it seems to be a 'Lottery'. QUESTION: earth loop impedance? If a TNS system provides a high earth loop impedance, I've been told "stick a few earth rods in" which makes sense decreasing resistance. However 'Parallel Paths'!!! affect resistance and I don't get it? . . . . I would be grateful if someone could clear this up for me , i.e using the armoured as well as an earth decreases resistance but in my understanding is a parallel path? . . .
 14 May 2007 12:22 PM
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deleted_roedeani

Posts: 1
Joined: 14 May 2007

hi

i assume you are talking about the Ze reading and not Zs.
i have just finished an intensive 4 day course 2391, (exam in 2 wks)
this is a point we discused we ended up saying that if the Ze on a TN S is too high one way of getting around it is to inform the supply co they can convert to TNC S

rob
 14 May 2007 02:51 PM
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deapea

Posts: 370
Joined: 13 May 2007

The OSG gives max values of Ze for different suply systems (it's at the beginning of the book, page 9 or somewhere around there).

By converting TNS to TNCS you are effectively converting earth faults to short circuit faults and because the N and P conductors are equal csa which is bigger than the the earth conductor this will reduce Ze.
 14 May 2007 02:53 PM
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deapea

Posts: 370
Joined: 13 May 2007

My advice to anyone taking 2391 is to buy a copy of Guidance notes 3, read it and understand it. If there is anything you not sure on either ask your tutor or post it on here.
 16 May 2007 08:05 PM
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deleted_garthy

Posts: 1
Joined: 16 May 2007

Hi Ady,

Took my 2391 practical at the start of April and due to sit the dreaded written exam at the start of June.

I have 3 partial papers to revise from (Nightmare) don't suppose you could send me some of those pass papers or point me in the right direction to find some.

Or, any advice would be welcomed.

Live long and prosper.

Garthy... the panicing 2391 student.

contact me on carvapink@hotmail.com

PS this is a borrowed e-mail address i am not gay.

Edited: 16 May 2007 at 08:08 PM by deleted_garthy
 18 May 2007 03:13 AM
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deleted_reknaw

Posts: 15
Joined: 29 March 2006

easy answer,
see C&G website for national stats (32-49% last 4 papers)
(chief examiners report)

Link removed

ask tutor for his own stats on last paper.
Mine 85%
go where its good odds.
Remember - you have to do the work!
I already passed and won't be with you when you take the test.
B4 u start, can u get 75% ?
You R the 1 taking it.
 07 June 2007 09:27 PM
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deleted_SHARPY649

Posts: 1
Joined: 07 June 2007

just sat exam hope fully past
 08 June 2007 12:38 PM
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wertyu

Posts: 90
Joined: 08 June 2007

hello i have just taken 2391 exam also i am an electrician and have 6 years exp and 236 parts 1 2 and 16th edition this is the hardest test ever had not because of subject material but the format. i think i have passed but must know wait to find out 6 weeks.any othrs just taken exam any feed back on the questions.i answered all but even know keep thinking of things i wished i had put in.i think i lost about 8 points on first 20 questions then perhaps 10 on section b. was not expecting question on what functional tests would be required on the circuit they had provided info for.did you remember rcd sockets.
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