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Topic Title: wrong trade
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Created On: 23 September 2017 09:56 PM
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 wrong trade   - dustydazzler - 23 September 2017 09:56 PM  
 wrong trade   - leckie - 24 September 2017 08:28 AM  
 wrong trade   - coastelectrics - 24 September 2017 11:29 AM  
 wrong trade   - dustydazzler - 24 September 2017 12:06 PM  
 wrong trade   - leckie - 24 September 2017 03:16 PM  
 wrong trade   - coastelectrics - 24 September 2017 03:45 PM  
 wrong trade   - dustydazzler - 24 September 2017 04:01 PM  
 wrong trade   - Alcomax - 24 September 2017 05:09 PM  
 wrong trade   - FizzleBang - 24 September 2017 07:44 PM  
 wrong trade   - leckie - 24 September 2017 08:01 PM  
 wrong trade   - FizzleBang - 25 September 2017 03:35 PM  
 wrong trade   - leckie - 25 September 2017 03:58 PM  
 wrong trade   - leckie - 25 September 2017 04:06 PM  
 wrong trade   - FizzleBang - 25 September 2017 04:41 PM  
 wrong trade   - geoffsd - 24 September 2017 08:21 PM  
 wrong trade   - Alcomax - 26 September 2017 12:12 PM  
 wrong trade   - jonny705 - 24 September 2017 08:25 PM  
 wrong trade   - geoffsd - 24 September 2017 08:43 PM  
 wrong trade   - dustydazzler - 24 September 2017 11:03 PM  
 wrong trade   - leckie - 25 September 2017 12:55 AM  
 wrong trade   - KFH - 24 September 2017 09:05 PM  
 wrong trade   - dustydazzler - 25 September 2017 03:19 AM  
 wrong trade   - tomgunn - 25 September 2017 08:26 AM  
 wrong trade   - jonny705 - 25 September 2017 01:09 PM  
 wrong trade   - dustydazzler - 25 September 2017 01:34 PM  
 wrong trade   - leckie - 25 September 2017 02:30 PM  
 wrong trade   - rocknroll - 25 September 2017 05:12 PM  
 wrong trade   - Fm - 25 September 2017 02:15 PM  
 wrong trade   - tomgunn - 26 September 2017 11:00 AM  
 wrong trade   - sparkingchip - 26 September 2017 11:32 AM  
 wrong trade   - sparkingchip - 26 September 2017 11:37 AM  
 wrong trade   - jonny705 - 25 September 2017 03:02 PM  
 wrong trade   - leckie - 25 September 2017 03:23 PM  
 wrong trade   - jonny705 - 25 September 2017 03:57 PM  
 wrong trade   - dustydazzler - 25 September 2017 06:09 PM  
 wrong trade   - dustydazzler - 26 September 2017 11:39 AM  
 wrong trade   - sparkingchip - 27 September 2017 08:31 AM  
 wrong trade   - tomgunn - 27 September 2017 09:34 AM  
 wrong trade   - jonny705 - 26 September 2017 12:45 PM  
 wrong trade   - dustydazzler - 26 September 2017 12:51 PM  
 wrong trade   - tomgunn - 26 September 2017 01:41 PM  
 wrong trade   - Zoomup - 27 September 2017 04:25 PM  
 wrong trade   - sparkingchip - 26 September 2017 01:58 PM  
 wrong trade   - tomgunn - 26 September 2017 04:13 PM  
 wrong trade   - dustydazzler - 26 September 2017 04:22 PM  
 wrong trade   - tomgunn - 26 September 2017 04:41 PM  
 wrong trade   - mapj1 - 26 September 2017 02:11 PM  
 wrong trade   - sparkingchip - 26 September 2017 05:56 PM  
 wrong trade   - leckie - 26 September 2017 09:50 PM  
 wrong trade   - dustydazzler - 26 September 2017 04:19 PM  
 wrong trade   - dustydazzler - 26 September 2017 05:00 PM  
 wrong trade   - sparkingchip - 26 September 2017 10:12 PM  
 wrong trade   - jonny705 - 26 September 2017 05:03 PM  
 wrong trade   - dustydazzler - 26 September 2017 05:10 PM  
 wrong trade   - jonny705 - 27 September 2017 10:02 AM  
 wrong trade   - tomgunn - 27 September 2017 11:54 AM  
 wrong trade   - davezawadi - 27 September 2017 12:46 PM  
 wrong trade   - tomgunn - 27 September 2017 01:53 PM  
 wrong trade   - sparkingchip - 27 September 2017 12:50 PM  
 wrong trade   - tomgunn - 27 September 2017 01:55 PM  
 wrong trade   - sparkingchip - 27 September 2017 11:00 AM  
 wrong trade   - dustydazzler - 27 September 2017 11:38 AM  
 wrong trade   - dustydazzler - 27 September 2017 02:28 PM  
 wrong trade   - tomgunn - 27 September 2017 04:09 PM  
 wrong trade   - dustydazzler - 27 September 2017 04:23 PM  
 wrong trade   - dustydazzler - 27 September 2017 04:36 PM  
 wrong trade   - psychicwarrior - 28 September 2017 03:38 PM  
 wrong trade   - Alcomax - 28 September 2017 04:03 PM  
 wrong trade   - whjohnson - 28 September 2017 07:34 PM  
 wrong trade   - tomgunn - 29 September 2017 10:53 AM  
 wrong trade   - EEDavid - 02 October 2017 05:12 PM  
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 23 September 2017 09:56 PM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 1360
Joined: 19 January 2016

just met up with an old mate who has changed careers recently and become a tiler of all things (he was a sparky amongst other things in a previous life)
He charges £45-50 per sq metre and is booked up until late Feb with domestic work.
on a good day with good preparation he reckons he can earn £500.
my reaction was , I'm in the wrong trade

thoughts ?
 24 September 2017 08:28 AM
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leckie

Posts: 4329
Joined: 21 November 2008

I'm always very suspicious when I hear things like that.

Firstly, people tend to quote their best days pay not the average day. So on a good day, after he has already spend time preparing to job, picked up materials, attended to quote, etc., say 2 hours work, he makes £500. He might also have spent 10 hours on site and knocked his pipe out. So on his best day that might be £500 for 12 hours work, not to be sniffed at. On his average day he might make £300 for the same work, so that £25 per hour if it took 12 hours of time in total or £37.50 per hour if he made this in 8 hours, very good.

When I employed people I used to get guys telling me all the time about how much their mates were earning on other firms, trying to pressurise me into paying them more. I used to explain that I was providing a van, holiday pay, plant, travel time and a good hourly rate, and that they only wanted to work 8 hours on site. Whereas the high earning mate of theirs was having to provide there own transport, plant and tools, and drive for an hour plus each way, to go sub-contracting for 10-12 hours a day on site. I also used to ask if their mate was during a nice new van, had a luxury car, and a high end house. Invariably this was not the case and so I would suggest that they asked their mate why this was if they were on such a fortune. That was the end of the conversation or they could of course go and apply for this wonderful career change.
 24 September 2017 11:29 AM
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coastelectrics

Posts: 83
Joined: 19 June 2006

I would say that just about all other trades now earn more than electricians and its a sad fact that people don't seem to respect electricians or want to spend money on electrical work - electrics being something that's so taken for granted its always at the bottom of the agenda even when it an integral part of any alteration or improvement (how often have you been called to a job to find all the other trades were nearly finished) and how I hate going to a job, opening a right can of worms and have to tell the customer it going cost more, sorry but I've just become depressed about the whole thing
 24 September 2017 12:06 PM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 1360
Joined: 19 January 2016

not to mention the fact that the last time I checked , tillers and painters and plasters don't need to pay a grand in scam fees every year.
so they not only earn more per 'average' day but are a grand infront of us before a penny even drops
 24 September 2017 03:16 PM
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leckie

Posts: 4329
Joined: 21 November 2008

Well let's make sure we're not comparing apples and oranges.

First, let's compare the wage rates for subbies, not on the books trades. So working for another contractor as a subbie. So for that you don't need to be in a scheme, the company sorts that out. If you look at large construction sites, the electrician in say the midlands would be on about £18-20 /hour day work rate. Plumbers might be on a bit more, but on day work subbing, not much more. Painters and tilers on day work would be less.

Now think about the same setup but this time the trades are on a price. Painters, carpenters, brickies, tillers and plasterers are barely always on a price. They also have mind numbingly boring jobs. They get paid well for slogging their guts out. If want price work as an electrician you
Basically have to do house bashing or metal munching, conduit, etc. It's a trade that doesn't lend itself to price work. It's not as physically hard as plastering, and wet plastering is a very skilled job, but after you had done it for a while you would be bored out of your mind.

Bricklayers earn very good money, but miss lots of days and time due to rain and frost, etc. Also hard work and extremely monotonous.

So, electricians have a physically easier job with more variety and interest, and you don't often miss days due to weather. So I reckon it evens out.

If you have your own business you have to charge enough to cover additional overheads, so instead of £19/hr, it should be nearer £30 as a lower end price in say the midlands for example.

I know I would rather do electrical work that painting, tiling or plastering, but might just be me.
 24 September 2017 03:45 PM
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coastelectrics

Posts: 83
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Since you put it that way Leckie I'm feeling better already- morale and self esteem rising. my earlier post followed an entire morning filling out EICRs and installation certificates. Brings me to another point - what do people do with these reports and certificates you spend hours preparing but you've got to justify to the customer the time spent.(Typical response: the last electrician didn't give me any certificate/got it but it'll be in loft somewhere/recycled.
 24 September 2017 04:01 PM
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dustydazzler

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I suspect more certs get filed in the bin sooner or later.
We get out boiler 'safety' checked by BG every year. I have a nice little pile of BG safety tick sheets rolled up shoved behind the pipes in the airing cupboard ready for when we come to sell the house.
I agree Leckie that training to become a full time electrician should bring with it a more varied working week , rather than just slapping paint on a ceiling 5 days a week.
It just seem odd to me that given we pay annual scam fees and train for 2-4 years possibly longer, that a site painter or site tiler would be on a very similar day rate if not more.
 24 September 2017 05:09 PM
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Alcomax

Posts: 231
Joined: 12 November 2009

Reasoning by comparison to the supposed remuneration of other trades will not necessarily help an electrician understand why so little "value" is attributed to the craft of electrical installation by the greater part of society. Leckies last comments gave as good an answer as you are going to get if you are to compare with other crafts.

BS7671 hangs heavy on those in the trade. You either do, you don't or you pretend to. Good clients know the difference, but the vast majority do not give a fetid dingos kidneys.

That is what we have always been up against. There is more profit in a lower standard. That standard becomes the most accepted as it is "competitive".

Like it or not there is a one size fits all perception of what is an "electrician". Nothing to do with any "qualification" , experience and, importantly "supervision", it is about the end result, satisfying the expectation of the client . It is presumed all electricians provide the same standard. Those in the industry absolutely know this to not be the case. As a standard BS7671 is far too unweildy to fully implement for most tasks associated with electrical work, so it is ommited on cost. As for certification, the model forms "inspection schedules" have become so convoluted as to have next to no value.


Ah that's better!
 24 September 2017 07:44 PM
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FizzleBang

Posts: 1309
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The average home owner doesn't see any skill in electrical work. They are ignorant of the technical aspect, so long as the light or socket works they are happy. A very average DIY'er can make electrical things work with zero skill.

Now, plastering, tiling, bricklaying and the like are highly skilled. They are all about the appearance of the finished job and that's all the customer cares about. They'll pay good money for things that look right. They have no interest in the impenetrable legislation and qualifications that an electrician thinks make him valuable.

When I got out of it, I thought it would be temporary until the economy turned the corner. Now I know i'm better off keeping out.

-------------------------
To me, to you
 24 September 2017 08:01 PM
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leckie

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Well what do you do now Fizzle?
 25 September 2017 03:35 PM
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FizzleBang

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Originally posted by: leckie

Well what do you do now Fizzle?


It's just 7 years since I was pointed at a plant operations job for a big utility company. The economy was in the throes of death, it had been months since a decent rewire turned up. Instead of inherited houses (have a lot of them, being on the edge of a huge retirement bungalow estate) being refurbed for the market, they were just getting tarted up to rent out "until the market improves". So the painters and carpet fitters were flat out. I'd be lucky to get asked for an "electrical certificate". No money left in the house bashing game. It literally fell over a cliff in just a few months.
So the job offer looked like a life-raft if nothing else.
Anyway I went for it, got up the ladder a tiny bit, have considerable autonomy and responsibility, but when I go out of the gate at the end of my shift I don't have a care in the world. Well, not work related cares. It isn't for the squeamish. Often up close and very personal with anything and everything that finds its way into a sewer. But it's the cleanest job I've ever had. I shower in company time and go home in clean clothes.
My employer covers all my time and expenses for training and qualifications too
And although there will be some here that think the £43k I earned last year isn't anything to write home about, it's rather good for this part of the world!

The only downside is that there are hundreds of managers. Managers managing managers....ad nauseum.
No surprise that very little work actually get done!

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To me, to you
 25 September 2017 03:58 PM
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leckie

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Fizzlebang - Well that sounds like you made a good move. I'm not sure what electrical qualifications enabled you to apply for a job in the sewage industry but well done!
 25 September 2017 04:06 PM
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leckie

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Well there you go Jonny, you can charge enough.

A lot of the problems with small domestic work is being selective about what you do. Board changes are good I think. Extensions, new builds, kitchen refurbs, are all OK. Doing maintenance or emergency repairs in a carpy rented property for an unscrupluous landlord, rewiring occupied properties, working for people who haggle all the while, are bad - don't do them you will lose money. Doing work on the cheap is a mistake full stop.
 25 September 2017 04:41 PM
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FizzleBang

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Originally posted by: leckie

Fizzlebang - Well that sounds like you made a good move. I'm not sure what electrical qualifications enabled you to apply for a job in the sewage industry but well done!


They actually prefer people with an electrical or mechanical background. The specifics aren't important but an aptitude for fault diagnosis and problem solving at an operational level is very desirable.

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To me, to you
 24 September 2017 08:21 PM
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geoffsd

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The drop in rates must be the fault of some doing the work for that amount.

That plumbers etc. don't do it cheaper is because they don't do it cheaper.
 26 September 2017 12:12 PM
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Alcomax

Posts: 231
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Originally posted by: geoffsd

The drop in rates must be the fault of some doing the work for that amount.



That plumbers etc. don't do it cheaper is because they don't do it cheaper.



For the problem of remuneration , reduction in profit etc, I think Geoffs comments are very valid. "Electricians", as most customers define the term, are the problem. There are always far too many and ready to go in cheap and quick. In the early 90's it was the same. So it is a fluctuating demand issue.

Some think it a quick and easy route to riches. Very simple and fairly low requirements required to get onto the first step. However many never get further than the first or second step. When demand is high, this is not a problem.

I have always heard the media say " we need more electricians", usually as a result of the engineering/ manufacturing/construction sector highlighting a shortage. However, what the the industry regards as an "electrician" and what the rest perceive is completely different in skill set.

Nothing to do with Europeans, if that is the perception, then all they are doing is what UK " electricians" did in early 1990's. In the past there was still the issue of UK general builders and other trades doing there own "electrics" as there is now.
 24 September 2017 08:25 PM
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jonny705

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£50m2 for just over 10 tiles laid - which would take how long to do? so over 100k a year for a roofer, Well you can get around £2500+ to over-skim a house , but not every week is the key thing really.

I got a vague feeling I ,might be charging too little looking at other people hourly rates, but if I get undercut all the time and have to bring some money in a week what can i do?

I went part 'P' etc 2 years ago and got all up to date ,etc ,a a considerable cost, and have I generated loads of work because I can legally pass off my work ? No, most people would not even care about a certificate let alone if the council finds out or not .

I don't honestly know what to do now as I am about to have to renew my Part P status at either £300 or £500 depending who you are with , plus the 18th means my £250 worth of books will soon be worthless and go on the Defunct electrical collection bookshelf as no-one wants to buy them.
Back to college to get updated for the 18th to allow you to be qualified to get Part P status next year.

My post regarding eicr on old property's last week brought it home to me , no legislation at all is required for landlords etc, but I have to 'prove ' to a governing body I am competent even though I have my C&G's etc, Risk assessments /methods statements, all the new piles of paperwork you need to replace basic common sense really, and employing someone is a legal minefield.

Each year , although you might have submitted 30 re-wires that year, you still have to 'Prove ' competency again , and pay the same amount, even though it's pretty unlikely you would be less experienced than the last time you were tested isn't it? But no the full fee again please, honestly you are not getting ripped off.

You can get £80-100 a day cash labouring, I think if I was younger I would do it, no worries /exams/money to pay out , just basic hard work, have a laugh, when your are finished you simply go home and chill, no paperwork /data to check/materials to order etc ,etc

Where's me spade?
 24 September 2017 08:43 PM
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geoffsd

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It's time the system and schemes were done away with.

They were brought in to regulate ancillary trades doing electrical work - and electricians were included.

Then in 2013, the notification requirements were, in England, relaxed , thus removing these ancillary trades from the need to register (except plumbers fitting new electric showers), so, apart from that, now the only people having to register are electricians.

You'd think the NICEIC and Napit would lobby for this - oh wait.
 24 September 2017 11:03 PM
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dustydazzler

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Originally posted by: geoffsd

It's time the system and schemes were done away with.



They were brought in to regulate ancillary trades doing electrical work - and electricians were included.



Then in 2013, the notification requirements were, in England, relaxed , thus removing these ancillary trades from the need to register (except plumbers fitting new electric showers), so, apart from that, now the only people having to register are electricians.



You'd think the NICEIC and Napit would lobby for this - oh wait.


scam registered sparks are at a handicap before we even lift a neon screwdriver in anger.
the whole partpee scam was invented to some how monitor the plumber and diyers but in reality it just made the honest sparks business a grand a year more expensive to operate. and for what.
so you can say you belong to a scam that 99.9% of householders have never even heard of. genius
 25 September 2017 12:55 AM
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leckie

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Joined: 21 November 2008

Well I don't know how true these figures are, but there some interesting details and comments regarding the differences sending on your employment status, which was one of the points I was trying to make.

http://www.tradeskills4u.co.uk...trician-salary-survey

If your are a plumber and working with gas you also need to be gas safe registered. And there are varying requirements for LPG, etc. I think if you fit wood burners you need some sort of registration.

The trouble with pay rates is that they are set by the trades theirselves. If you charge low you get the jobs, and there are companies that will charge very tightly to win jobs, market forces. As has been said, much of the general public just want the cheapest price and just hope the work will be ok. In my experience, over time you build a customer base, and if you are good the customers are willing to pay a bit more rather than play electricians Russian roulette.

Don't worry about what you earn in a good week, concern yourself with what do you earn net in a year.

All this stuff about paying a scheme £300-£500 a year is a bit silly really. £2 a day max. Probably the maximum it costs per day to be a sparks over and above that of being a carpenter is about £5
 24 September 2017 09:05 PM
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KFH

Posts: 535
Joined: 06 November 2010

I have a friend who is a reasonable plasterer and keeps busy but he hates it, I know a couple of older plastered (autocricket strikes again should be plasterers) with bad arthritis. I know people who work as labourers but they have problems when they older due to years of physical work taking a toll on their bodies. I know some of us also suffer from bad knees etc as we get older but we have options to do other things if we are lucky or capable.So while the grass can look greener I am not always convinced it is not just artificial grass. However when standing in a muddy hole in the middle of a very muddy field in heavy rain trying to terminate 25mm 4core SWA into a junction box mounted on a pole anything appears preferable.

I think we are undervalued because there are so many "electricians" out there who do not produce documentation, ignore BS7671 if it makes the job more complicated/expensive and who can do the job cheaply as a result. I am sure that we have all seen and often had to rectify the results. The customer is concerned about price and appearance and not the intricacies of BS7671. How many people are dying as a result of poor installation work, not enough to worry anyone?

I feel I have been lucky that most of my customers have believed me when I have explained why their installation needs rectification work before I can do the simple job they actually want done and if they don't I have been in the fortunate position that I was usually not desperate for their work.

Finally while I can do a good job of tiling, it takes me forever, I hate doing it and I could never earn a living at it. It ranks much lower than standing in that hole in the field.
 25 September 2017 03:19 AM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 1360
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But Leckie its not 'just' £2 or £3 or £4 per day when like myself due to health and family issues I can only work part time.
So scam membership is a massive financial burden of which I estimate can cost me around £150 per notifiable job. This really hurts my bottom line.
I know I can get the homeowner to register the job after the fact and pay the LBC to come out and vet the job.
But likewise this can work out very expensive on a modest rewire for example.
Not every electrician is working flat out 6 days per week absorbing the scam costs like they are a trivial matter.
To me £500-£1000 per year overhead ontop of the usual expenses is a big deal.
 25 September 2017 08:26 AM
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tomgunn

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On a good day - maybe BUT, there are far too many Polish / Europeans here... no, I'm NOT bashing our friends from the EU countries... again, look, I do tiling as one of my trades... I'd like to show you some examples of huge tiling sets of works but Googles Chrome is blocking 'flash' objects... gotta sort that out today on my site. SO, I don't go by the square metre - I look at the floor area and wall are's etc... then I usually feel what time it would take..., (I think that the price per square metreage was something like £25 to £35???), like to go for £200 per day on price, knowing if I worked at it then I could make some more. Priced a large bathroom a year or so ago and the client really wanted me to do it but emailed me to ask if I could knock off some £200 off of the price... but I said no as I have done this in the past only to regret it half way through any works... she had some foreign chap that was cheaper, I don't know his origin so cannot say... to say you'll make £500 per day is a farce - yes we can all do a one off project and make that but overall... not every day!

The thing is... doing tiling isn't overall, a quick process... doing the returns and edging takes time!! Its not a quick wham-bam thank you mam job! I have seen 'quick' works and you can see bad workmanship!

I was talking to my neighbour this weekend and he has a Polish plumber who charges £100 per day... another European that charges £120 per day for pebble-dashing, thats something that I also do very well!!

SO, IF I had a mortgage... a wife and two kids to support, as I used to along with 2 wabbits, then I would.. SINK! I don't share a room with 6 other labourers' - wages have gone down. as far as I can see!

Anyways - 'av a nice day!

regards - Tom

-------------------------
Tom.... (The TERMINATOR).

handyTRADESMAN

Castle Builders

Edited: 25 September 2017 at 08:46 AM by tomgunn
 25 September 2017 01:09 PM
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jonny705

Posts: 153
Joined: 26 September 2015

The thing with saying I am silly moaning about the cost of joining a CPS , is not so much the money at all, it's the fact you are not really getting anything for it are you?

It is quite clear from the many , many threads on the net I have read about Part P that most sparks don't agree with it, if anything see it as a way of deceiving the public you are competent.
It's also evident from the evidence /statistics etc, that it has done nothing to combat bodging or stop anymore deaths etc- just like the metal consumer board issue ,its legislation , but not well thought out legislation.

It's simply money for nothing- an example of this is -To get on the 'Trust Mark site' you have to be part of a CPS scheme, all they do is submit your details to the site. Stroma charge you £50 NIC £120 What's the difference in admin/time costs between them, Is it value for money, Shouldn't you just go on it automatically after paying to prove to whoever you are competent, no because its another way of making money out of you.

As to the figures on that Trade site regarding salaries, a painter on nearly £500 a week , just no way in a million years where I live (Midlands), the painters that done our estate up last year in Coventry travelled from Birmingham, and were on price work -a Garage door was £5!
The thing that really annoyed the older guys though was not so much the crap money ,but the fact that they actually were time served ,but couldn't do a decent job with pride anymore - it was literally painting over dirt cobwebs etc - just soul destroying for them.

I see being all up to date qualified etc as a double edged sword as , you have to do everything by the book , all liability traced back to you , be sued to death if you electrocuted someone etc.

Or you could not care about certification /qualification /Insurance etc, plead stupidly as a defence if you killed someone , and the lack of any overheads etc, means you are likely to be on the same weekly rate as me.

The Industry IMO, domestic side is proper messed up - I feel another thread starting on it
 25 September 2017 01:34 PM
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dustydazzler

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I wish electricians would give me £500 a year , every single year simply to carry on doing what they were doing before

Nice little earner for whom ever is collecting the cash
 25 September 2017 02:30 PM
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leckie

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Joined: 21 November 2008

OK, I'll wind my neck in a bit

Firstly Jonny, I didn't mean you were silly to moan about the cost of registering with a scheme, I just meant that for the average business, even a small one, the cost of the scheme fees is a very small percentage of the annual income stream. I think it needs to be considered why you need or want to be in the scheme. If it is just for domestic work to enable you to self notify work, then choose the cheapest scheme. I think Stroma is £290, so not too much. If you want to be NICEIC full Approved Contractor I think mine is £470. Now I get a benefit because I do a reasonable amount of commercial EICR's and the client invariably ask for NICEIC. So its paid for just by that.

Bit different for Dusty because his situation is different due to reduced working hours. I have experienced a lot of that same problem over the last couple of years having had to take of a lot of time and struggling to do a full day of manual work, so I empathise with you Dusty. But that is just an unfortunate side affect of our personal circumstances with the part P notification system as it stands. Whether or not the notification system should be replaced, altered or should disappear is a different subject to wages I think.

One thing is true, and that is that the rate at which you can charge for a contract has not increased much in the last five years, but that is not just for electricians.

If you search for jobs for electricians, plumbers, etc., the rates seem to be fairly similar for an equivalent employment status. Have a quick google and see what you find. As I have said, I tend to take with a large pinch of salt the claimed wages as told by the bloke in the pub. A mate of mine has told me his sons are on £500 per day as wet plasterers in London. However that involves 4 hours driving and fuel and about 10 hours on site, on a price. Now I have no reason to disbelieve this except that as this is about £120k per year I wonder why they live in tiny houses in a low cost area of the midlands, and have old cars. That simply doesn't ring true. I suspect that they had a job that lasted 3 weeks that paid that rate but that in fact they earn about £50 - £60k max if they can work for about 48 weeks a year, with no frost to stop work. From that they pay fuel of about £5000 plus added vehicular repair cost that high mileage bring - they earn £55k tops for very long days indeed. Why would they be getting paid anymore when there are lots of others that will work for far less?

So if I wanted to drive to London every day, and lots do from where I live, I could earn lots of money if I could stand up to 14 hour days - but I cant and would not want to.

I'm not sure what benefit the trust mark scheme offers, no client has ever mentioned it to me.
 25 September 2017 05:12 PM
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rocknroll

Posts: 9541
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Originally posted by: dustydazzler

I wish electricians would give me £500 a year , every single year simply to carry on doing what they were doing before

Nice little earner for whom ever is collecting the cash


As you are so disillusioned and fed up with your present job there could be some jobs coming up that will up your street, a number of the LA's will be looking for 'badger catchers' at this time of the year, good pay and best of all the thrill of the hunt. LOL

Regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
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 25 September 2017 02:15 PM
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Fm

Posts: 1713
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Guys, stop complaining and do something about it.
Either retrain
Go work for a company and leave the self employment behind
Increase your labour costs and keep all the good customers
Stop going on about Polish/ etc/etc. guys stealing your work
 26 September 2017 11:00 AM
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tomgunn

Posts: 3916
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Originally posted by: Fm

Guys, stop complaining and do something about it.

Either retrain

Go work for a company and leave the self employment behind

Increase your labour costs and keep all the good customers

Stop going on about Polish/ etc/etc. guys stealing your work


Actually you're right!! What we should all do is to bury our heads in the sand and let the Europeans take over... great idea!

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handyTRADESMAN

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 26 September 2017 11:32 AM
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sparkingchip

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One of my customers has been given a diesel fired water heating pressure washer by a brother in law who owns a garage, instead of paying someone to come and use the pressure washer to wash the cars on his car sales site he now gets the Albanians at the hand car wash down the road to do them.

Do you think he will ask for his washer back after Brexit and hire a Brit to wash the cars again onsite, or do you think a Brit will take over the hand car wash, or will we keep enough EU citizens to wash our cars for us?

I really can't get anyone to tell me what they think is going to happen, if Brexit happens. I usually get some mumbling about keeping enough EU citizens to do the work, but not allowing anymore in.

Andy B
 26 September 2017 11:37 AM
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sparkingchip

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Originally posted by: Fm

Guys, stop complaining and do something about it.

Either retrain

Go work for a company and leave the self employment behind

Increase your labour costs and keep all the good customers

Stop going on about Polish/ etc/etc. guys stealing your work


Instead of going to Elex at Coventry last Friday, I trained and was assessed for a LANTRA Brushcutter operator certificate and plan to do some other similar training over the winter.

That will give me a few more choices next year work wise, rather than trying to sort out badly installed electrical circuits and equipment.

Andy B
 25 September 2017 03:02 PM
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jonny705

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Fm , okay please tell me what to retrain for ?

I have no problem in going back to college etc and learning something to better myself , but I have 2360/2391/2393/2382/2394/2395 CPS certified , as a domestic electrician what else have I got left to make me better?

I am polite /honest /pedantic/reliable /smart /decent van /tools /tidy , yet if I quote a decent amount say based on £25-£30 an hour never will get the job.

I have been for numerous interviews ,but at nearly 50 , you are going to lose the job, to the younger guys because you will not be so fast basically and the company knows that.

Foreigners / people on the dole steeling /undercutting your work has gone on since I was born, so that's just an unfortunate fact of life that will never change or become less annoying.

Some people will look to others to blame for everything and indeed moan etc all the time, but I really don't think I am like that at all , but don't like being took for a ride or not getting VFM when I have to pay a lot of money for something, and will ALWAYS be vocal about it- although if it comes across as me complaining well that's your opinion, and you are absolutely entitled to it no worries
 25 September 2017 03:23 PM
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leckie

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If your near Coventry Jonny, you are not far from me, I can get £25-£30 pretty easily so I don't know what's different. I am older than you so you should be as quick as me. If I was younger, say 40, my £25/hr would relate to about £35 per hour as I would be able to do more over a day.

How much can you charge for a dual split load consumer unit change with say 8 circuits?

Lets assume the bonding and tails are up to scrat, so its just a test and swap the board. you can get a fully loaded board for about £65 from Screwfix, lets assume another £10 in sundries, so £75 plus VAT materials, so £90 to the client. Should be able to do that in a 8 hour day. At £25/hour that £200 labour. If your VAT registered that £240 to the client, so £330 to the client. Add part P, £3, add fuel/van of say £30 inc vat. So £363 inc VAT. Now that should be easily achievable I would think.
 25 September 2017 03:57 PM
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jonny705

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Well Lekie, it's funny you quote those prices as I have just done a consumer board, and have quoted for another at £200 labour each plus the bits, up to them I was charging around £160.

The second one also needs some electrical work on a new little extension and a Bathroom job.
I would not have got either of these if I hadn't been CPS registered, I am going to hopefully use the second one as an assessment for the NIC, as it should have enough different things for them to look at.

I have just done, loads of inspections on caravans, at £120 each, which Is probably £40 below any other quote, but it's not always about the money, the people are lovely ,it's a pleasure to drive there and I am not doing an 8 hour day by any means, if they didn't talk to me so much I more then likely could do two a day with a bit of O/T Also I have had a lot of remedial work , due to it and have made many new friends and could probably get character references of most of them.

I grew up on a building site ,and can do carpentry really well, have worked with brickies/plasterers /ground workers/tilers/roofers basically every trade, and know the hardships of each really but for some reason was drawn to Electrics , who knows why
 25 September 2017 06:09 PM
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dustydazzler

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There is no money in the world that would make me turn on a fellow badger , no matter how badgery their work is.

It's not that I'm fed up badgering

I'm just a little peeved having to pay for the privilege
 26 September 2017 11:39 AM
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dustydazzler

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I genuinely don't think that we will be much if any reduction in cheap eu labour post brexit.
We want them , we use them and companies like them.
Just in Saturday I was at a house where the builder employees 2 polish lads to do all his labouring , plastering , basic plumbing and wiring. Basically they do the lot barring gas work.
He pays them £55 per day each and they were lovely young men . Happy to be here and worked blooming hard.
Irreplaceable? No. Hard to replace. Probably yes.
 27 September 2017 08:31 AM
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sparkingchip

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Originally posted by: dustydazzler

I genuinely don't think that we will be much if any reduction in cheap eu labour post brexit.

We want them , we use them and companies like them.

Just in Saturday I was at a house where the builder employees 2 polish lads to do all his labouring , plastering , basic plumbing and wiring. Basically they do the lot barring gas work.

He pays them £55 per day each and they were lovely young men . Happy to be here and worked blooming hard.

Irreplaceable? No. Hard to replace. Probably yes.


So post Brexit according to those in favour the builder will have to use Brits and pay them more, so:

Will the builder lose a highly profitable workforce who he charges out at Brit rates, whilst underpaying them?

Will the customer be faced with a higher price for the work, maybe making it unaffordable?

Will Brit workers be forced to work at the lower rates as the country plunges back into recession?

If pay rates go up the money has to come out of someone's pocket, add into this materials could go up further in price.

All a bit of an unknown isn't? I suspect there will be less work as customers won't have so much money in their pockets and the cost of living will go up, particularly with clients who have sunk their life savings and pensions into one or more HMO's and flats that are rented out to EU workers.

So where is the money going to be for the building trades post Brexit?

One for Dustydazzlers' crystal balls.

Andy B.

Edited: 27 September 2017 at 10:34 AM by sparkingchip
 27 September 2017 09:34 AM
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tomgunn

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I think you'll find that the large jobs are now filled with Euro workers... thats one way around the pay dispute, Leckie... it was tilers he was referring to I was saying about roofing, which is VERY simple work!

I charge old and young and I have also done works for free on one occasion my mate had too much work and asked me to run a two way switching in a bedroom for a young paralyzed woman - I did a bad thing - when she went out of the room I packed up, after doing the works, and left so she didnt have to pay me... I think it was a negative thing to do as she would probably have been happier to have paid BUT, old people probably have lots of savings and we have to pay our bills... I had an old woman living near me and she was disabled and her power had gone off... I asked if the RCD had tripped and she thought it hadn't went around there and it had - turned it on and left not charging.

Tom

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handyTRADESMAN

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 26 September 2017 12:45 PM
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jonny705

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Thanks Leckie, you I think have given me some good advise based on your experience.

I was only thinking that if I get my NIC thing passed in the next couple of weeks, I will advertise for RE-wires /EICR/and Consumer board changes, Re-wiring a kitchen or new extension type things.
I think that doing the little jobs, is just not worth it because of the time to practically drive there and you are undercut by everyone on the simple stuff.

I am going to work out my prices based on £25 hour , and just stick firmly to them I think

Also I have learnt not to fit cheaper stuff ,because it's a pig to wire normally and often fails prematurely.
 26 September 2017 12:51 PM
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dustydazzler

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Jonny , £25 ph is ridiculously cheap imo for a fully qualified niceic registered electrician.

Here is south London general handymen are charging around £40ph just to do odd jobs. £45 ph if you are in the congestion zone
 26 September 2017 01:41 PM
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tomgunn

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Without going on about things - all you have to ask yourselves is... how did we manage before the mass influx... I MEAN... how the HELL did we manage do wash our cars ourselves??? Hahaha!! Madness!

Theres lots of car washing machines around that are not used... I hate going to Sainsburys as all I get are people coming up to me begging to wash my car and I reply to THEM... can I paint your house or wire some new sockets... mind you, that goes over their heads!

Lets face it, Brexit will be soooo watered down you'll never know the difference in the end from now... I'm not going to get into anything political... I want to keep as low a profile as possible really nowadays... so if you're all ok with what we now have then thats good enough for me!

What about who earns £500 per day then? I doubt its the tilers... but then again... who knows these days???

Be happy!

Tom

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 27 September 2017 04:25 PM
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Zoomup

Posts: 3286
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Originally posted by: dustydazzler

Jonny , £25 ph is ridiculously cheap imo for a fully qualified niceic registered electrician.



Here is south London general handymen are charging around £40ph just to do odd jobs. £45 ph if you are in the congestion zone



I charge more than that in the sticks. But my hourly rate reduces once I am on site. The first hour includes my travelling time and costs. Nobody complains cos I do a good job and am polite and chatty. Also I guarantee my work. Most people have no idea about effective marketing, i.e. how to promote themselves and business. I do not itemise labour and materials on my invoices, the total is shown only. I keep a note separately if the customer wants to know the breakdown figures, but nobody actually asks. I do not work for builders. I always work directly for the customer. I carry loads of stock and spares and in 99 per cent of cases complete the work in one visit only. I get paid when I am finished on the day. I offer no credit at all.

Bye,

Z.
 26 September 2017 01:58 PM
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sparkingchip

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You said it yourself Tom, people used to wash their cars themselves, typically a Sunday morning task, now they don't.

So the upper working and lower middle classes will either have to be prepared to pay more for the car washing service or buy a bucket, if this dream of an post Brexit surge in jobs done by EU citizens being done by Brits at a higher rate of pay becomes reality.

Andy B.

Edited: 26 September 2017 at 05:51 PM by sparkingchip
 26 September 2017 04:13 PM
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tomgunn

Posts: 3916
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Originally posted by: sparkingchip

You said it yourself Tom, people used to wash their cars themselves, typically a Sunday morning task, now they don't.



So the upper working and lower middle classes will either have to be prepared to pay more for the car washing service or buy a bucket, if this dream of an post Brexit surge in jobs done by EU citizens being done by Brits at a higher rate of pay.



Andy B.





The thing IS... its more exercise for the people! I was talking to my neighbour today - he's put on a lot of weight since he's retired two years ago as he was given some photos of a do he went to last week... he was SHOCKED at how fat he now looks when he used to be a marathon runner - hahaha - hes SUDDENLY gone off for 3 mile walk-a-bouts... WASH YOUR CAR!!

I reckon, getting back on track, the main lot who will earn £500 plus a day are roofers... without any doubt - I've done it and my mates a roofer and its cringing how much he gets and even he laughs when he tells me the prices!!

regards

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handyTRADESMAN

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 26 September 2017 04:22 PM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 1360
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Originally posted by: tomgunn

Originally posted by: sparkingchip



You said it yourself Tom, people used to wash their cars themselves, typically a Sunday morning task, now they don't.







So the upper working and lower middle classes will either have to be prepared to pay more for the car washing service or buy a bucket, if this dream of an post Brexit surge in jobs done by EU citizens being done by Brits at a higher rate of pay.







Andy B.










The thing IS... its more exercise for the people! I was talking to my neighbour today - he's put on a lot of weight since he's retired two years ago as he was given some photos of a do he went to last week... he was SHOCKED at how fat he now looks when he used to be a marathon runner - hahaha - hes SUDDENLY gone off for 3 mile walk-a-bouts... WASH YOUR CAR!!



I reckon, getting back on track, the main lot who will earn £500 plus a day are roofers... without any doubt - I've done it and my mates a roofer and its cringing how much he gets and even he laughs when he tells me the prices!!



regards


As I say , I have just this second spoken to my mate to arrange Friday drinks , he has just finished tiling a small bathroom walls and floor and charged a grand. customer supplied own tiles. it took him 1.5 days all done and dusted just gone 2.30 today.
nice if you can get it I guess
 26 September 2017 04:41 PM
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tomgunn

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Originally posted by: dustydazzler

Originally posted by: tomgunn



Originally posted by: sparkingchip







You said it yourself Tom, people used to wash their cars themselves, typically a Sunday morning task, now they don't.















So the upper working and lower middle classes will either have to be prepared to pay more for the car washing service or buy a bucket, if this dream of an post Brexit surge in jobs done by EU citizens being done by Brits at a higher rate of pay.















Andy B.








[IMG][/IMG]











The thing IS... its more exercise for the people! I was talking to my neighbour today - he's put on a lot of weight since he's retired two years ago as he was given some photos of a do he went to last week... he was SHOCKED at how fat he now looks when he used to be a marathon runner - hahaha - hes SUDDENLY gone off for 3 mile walk-a-bouts... WASH YOUR CAR!!







I reckon, getting back on track, the main lot who will earn £500 plus a day are roofers... without any doubt - I've done it and my mates a roofer and its cringing how much he gets and even he laughs when he tells me the prices!!







regards




As I say , I have just this second spoken to my mate to arrange Friday drinks , he has just finished tiling a small bathroom walls and floor and charged a grand. customer supplied own tiles. it took him 1.5 days all done and dusted just gone 2.30 today.

nice if you can get it I guess


Hahaha - I'm gonna try that!!!

The thing is... I am quite happy at £200 a day plus... thats a bag 'ov sand a week!

Cheers all!

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 26 September 2017 02:11 PM
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mapj1

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I have solved this problem, by not washing my vehicle at all *.
I am in one way fully "Brexit-ready" .

* OK, I have been known to get out and remove mud splatter from the windscreen so I can see out, hopefully in future self-driving cars will not need this.

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regards Mike
 26 September 2017 05:56 PM
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sparkingchip

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Originally posted by: mapj1

I have solved this problem, by not washing my vehicle at all *.

I am in one way fully "Brexit-ready" .



* OK, I have been known to get out and remove mud splatter from the windscreen so I can see out, hopefully in future self-driving cars will not need this.


Can a self driving car take itself through an automatic car wash, also book and take itself to a garage for a service?

When I was a kid a blind neighbours guide dog was given a Blue Peter badge and they both appeared on the tv show after the dog took the pair of them to the vets, because it didn't feel well.

So can a self driving car be as clever as a dog?

Andy B
 26 September 2017 09:50 PM
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leckie

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Dusty, you really must realise that London is not the only place in Great Britain. I am fully aware that £40 /hour is a feasable rate in London, but it is nearer £25-30 in the Midlands.

And by the way, refer to my previous comments; is your roofer mate about to order a new Bentley? No? Well don't believe his loadsamoney bullsh*t.

However, if you can charge £40-50 per hour, why on earth are you bothered about paying a few hundred quid a year to be in a scheme? It could be argued that you are getting very good value. You can charge £10-15 per hour more than we in the midlands can, but you pay the same annual fee. I think Londoners should pay a higher rate in line with their higher wages

Jonny, start charging £25-30/hour. You will still get plenty of work.

Edited: 27 September 2017 at 05:20 AM by leckie
 26 September 2017 04:19 PM
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dustydazzler

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The 'hand car wash' near me is permanently full with Chelsea tractors queuing up getting their weekly wash and polish.
But its not as cheap as it once was , just because the team of 20 odd car washers are all eastern euro they aren't stupid.
When they set up next door to the local BP garage about 5 years ago in a disused car park they initially charge £10 for a wash and buff, now its £25 for the same wash and buff and you get a quick hoover of your boot and foot wells if they aren't too busy.
 26 September 2017 05:00 PM
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dustydazzler

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I am amazed the customer didn't even bat an eyelid at a £1000 bill for less than 2 days work.
Some people have far too much money obviously.

Consumer unit change , yes madam. That's £2000 please. Wonder if I can pull it off next time I'm quoting
 26 September 2017 10:12 PM
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sparkingchip

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Originally posted by: dustydazzler

I am amazed the customer didn't even bat an eyelid at a £1000 bill for less than 2 days work.

Some people have far too much money obviously.



Consumer unit change , yes madam. That's £2000 please. Wonder if I can pull it off next time I'm quoting


Generally to cherry pick the jobs you need to quote lots and lots of work.

So there's the first challenge.

Andy B.
 26 September 2017 05:03 PM
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jonny705

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Well Dusty its funny you say that I am too cheap always have had a problem talking money I guess.

Many years ago I put some lights up for an old lady , and didn't charge her much , she said to me something like: " well if you want some sound advise , you are a lovely lad but you are never going to make any money being too nice"

I think I should have listened to her all them years back
 26 September 2017 05:10 PM
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dustydazzler

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Jonny , I'm exactly the same.
Done lots of jobs for old people and literally did some jobs for tea and cake.
My wife used to go crackers at me for being gone 8 hours on a Saturday and coming back with £40 in my pocket and a belly full of scones and sponge cake.
I to am carp at taking money and even worse at hitting someone with a big bill.
 27 September 2017 10:02 AM
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jonny705

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You cannot at all predict what will happen after Brexit ,if indeed it will ever get there- jeez I have just gave up now reading the papers , I might as well ask a fortune teller.

I personally think prices of products will go up ,but we buy too much stuff we don't need anyway - but then we have been brainwashed on consumerism /debts fine mentality.

I really think there will be a property crash , not huge, but house prices are just too dear, and are artificially cheap on the monthly payments ,because of the ridiculous low interest rate.

Regarding the labour etc, As I have said before I grew up on building sites ,and years ago cannot remember any foreign people at all, but the (normally) labourers that would be employed, a lot were on cash and signed on, it was just the accepted thing-so cheap labour has always existed before the influx of loads of foreign people.

My mates son is working in London in some exhibition work with electricians, and he is on £120 cash so add approx 30% to that and its nearly £160- £800 a week or £42k a year, and if he wanted too, could, I suppose sign on and get housing benefit as well !

I cannot earn that , and he has little responsibility really either, he is just employed for the donkey work as such, now you have to have insurance /pensions/risk assessments etc, for your employers- it's just made the cash type employment more, not less attractive for employers , to do it legally if you are a small or one man band is not worth the hassle, so cash /under the radar will never go away.

Regarding the original post on the roofer guy, the fact that it rains at least half the time, in Uk, I cannot see that you can strip a roof in howling rain TBH, I've been there and it's your worst nightmare as a roofer-so it's not a accurate figure, also my mates son will not be doing that job 365 days a year by any means, likely to last for a few weeks then back here on nothing more than likely.
 27 September 2017 11:54 AM
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tomgunn

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Originally posted by: jonny705

You cannot at all predict what will happen after Brexit ,if indeed it will ever get there- jeez I have just gave up now reading the papers , I might as well ask a fortune teller.



I personally think prices of products will go up ,but we buy too much stuff we don't need anyway - but then we have been brainwashed on consumerism /debts fine mentality.



I really think there will be a property crash , not huge, but house prices are just too dear, and are artificially cheap on the monthly payments ,because of the ridiculous low interest rate.



Regarding the labour etc, As I have said before I grew up on building sites ,and years ago cannot remember any foreign people at all, but the (normally) labourers that would be employed, a lot were on cash and signed on, it was just the accepted thing-so cheap labour has always existed before the influx of loads of foreign people.



My mates son is working in London in some exhibition work with electricians, and he is on £120 cash so add approx 30% to that and its nearly £160- £800 a week or £42k a year, and if he wanted too, could, I suppose sign on and get housing benefit as well !



I cannot earn that , and he has little responsibility really either, he is just employed for the donkey work as such, now you have to have insurance /pensions/risk assessments etc, for your employers- it's just made the cash type employment more, not less attractive for employers , to do it legally if you are a small or one man band is not worth the hassle, so cash /under the radar will never go away.



Regarding the original post on the roofer guy, the fact that it rains at least half the time, in Uk, I cannot see that you can strip a roof in howling rain TBH, I've been there and it's your worst nightmare as a roofer-so it's not a accurate figure, also my mates son will not be doing that job 365 days a year by any means, likely to last for a few weeks then back here on nothing more than likely.


Well, I have worked outside for the best part of 30 years and you'd be surprised at how little time I have lost due to the rain so thats a no-goer! PLUS, when I did have the occasional days off my wife wasn't too pleased as she wanted the house, as they all do I guess, to themselves?

Nowadays when they do large roofings they put a top hat on it OR, you can strip one side of a roof off and re-felt it complete with enough batons to hold it all down and weatherproof too in a day!

STOP worrying about house prices they will always go up and down and I will be putting mine on this week... ( house for sale... )... if the price goes down then others that you may want to buy go down and so on... Brexit won't happen - and I ain't worried... sod 'em! Haha!

regards - Tom

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 27 September 2017 12:46 PM
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davezawadi

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Very nice, and good details too...
Where are you going Tom, or is that a secret?

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 27 September 2017 01:53 PM
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tomgunn

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Originally posted by: davezawadi

Very nice, and good details too...

Where are you going Tom, or is that a secret?


Thanks Dave... I was aiming at Eastbourne... a mile off of the coast as I am worried about Tsunami - to be honest!

And I have now found another area... called Hailsham..., something like this really... I want to get some monies out of the property so I can give my kids some... and have a bit left over... sadly my house isn't anything special... been here for 39 years and paid £14,500 for it in 1978! Haha - shudda bought TWO! Couldn't afford this one really back then.

Tom

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handyTRADESMAN

Castle Builders
 27 September 2017 12:50 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 9969
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For the price of one house in Worcester Park, you can have two in Worcester.

Andy B.
 27 September 2017 01:55 PM
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tomgunn

Posts: 3916
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Originally posted by: sparkingchip

For the price of one house in Worcester Park, you can have two in Worcester.



Andy B.


My daughter lives in Fence - Lancashire and she bought a big detached house with lots of land in a close... she paid £220,000 but in Wimbledon it would be worth at least £2,000,000 and around here £1,000,000... so I know what you mean.

Cheers

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handyTRADESMAN

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 27 September 2017 11:00 AM
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sparkingchip

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Thirty odd years ago I saw some bricklayers and their labourer put up some sectional scaffolding, then the labourer nipped into town before starting to load dense concrete blocks onto the scaffold. The scaffold collapsed because they didn't know how to assemble the corners, the labourer hit the concrete floor and dense blocks landed on top of him. A ambulance carted him off to hospital and all the blame game started with the labourer thinking him would get a big payout, though he wasn't seriously injured in reality.

I ended up being asked by the HSE inspector who's fault I thought it was, I said they all shared the blame as erecting the scaffolding had been a joint venture with the labourer being just as responsible as the bricklayers, also the labourer could forget any payout as the trip to town had been to sign on at the dole office and the incident had happened about three quarters of an hour of him signing on, leaving himself wide open to investigation and prosecution. The HSE inspector decided not to take matters any further and left it at that, these days I suspect it would go much further.

The simple truth is that historically building firms didn't even know who was on their sites, what they were doing, if they were insured, experienced or qualified; or indeed working whilst signing on the dole.

There is NOT a golden age of working on British building sites that can be returned to, it has never really been any good, hence a culture of take the money and run developed, which still exists in most quarters.

Andy B.

Edited- spell chequer altered isn't to is and altered the meaning of e sentence.

Edited: 27 September 2017 at 12:39 PM by sparkingchip
 27 September 2017 11:38 AM
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dustydazzler

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Crystal ball out and witches hat on.
Post brexit 'if' we see a fall in the influx of eu labourers and handymen our builders and contractors will simply put their prices up.
There is a polish agency near me where most local builders use to get their workers.
Builder just picks up the phone and rings them asking fir say , 2 brickes , 2 carpenters a plasterer and painter.
Next day they will be onsite.
If the builder likes them and they work their sack off , he will then cut out the agency and employ them directly.
If that stream of extremely cheap labour were to dry up , they would be forced to use domestic subbies and just pass that cost on to joe public house owner.
 27 September 2017 02:28 PM
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dustydazzler

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House prices are crazy in most parts of London.
My dads old business college used to live in Putney (a 5 min walk from Putney Bridge) they paid ..... wait for it ..... £4000 for their 4 bed 3 storey Victorian town house. Estimated market value today £3,000,000 and it doesn't even have a driveway or off street parking. You have to 'pay" the council for a parking permits.
Crazy simply crazy

Edited: 27 September 2017 at 02:37 PM by dustydazzler
 27 September 2017 04:09 PM
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tomgunn

Posts: 3916
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Originally posted by: dustydazzler

House prices are crazy in most parts of London.

My dads old business college used to live in Putney (a 5 min walk from Putney Bridge) they paid ..... wait for it ..... £4000 for their 4 bed 3 storey Victorian town house. Estimated market value today £3,000,000 and it doesn't even have a driveway or off street parking. You have to 'pay" the council for a parking permits.

Crazy simply crazy


I KNOW.... why do think I am sick as a parrot for not buying a house there - £4000???? Haha!

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handyTRADESMAN

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 27 September 2017 04:23 PM
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dustydazzler

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yep a whole 4 grand

don't it make you sick
 27 September 2017 04:36 PM
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dustydazzler

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Its quite apparent how varied and hit and miss that rates actually are. from region to region and often even in the same region.
as I mention before , I am carp at hitting people really hard with a big bill for a couple hours work. I'm always coming up with a figure in my mind and for some reason always seem to round it down when I say it.
yet I just paid £120 for a gardener to grind a small tree stump out in my back yard. took him about 1.5 hours and he originally quoted me £100 over the phone.
what a mug I am
 28 September 2017 03:38 PM
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psychicwarrior

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Ahh that age old devil called money! the love of it is the root..... etc

Imagine an enlightened new system where money does not exist - the system works differently and for a different purpose......bet you can't fathom it :-)

Any way, I aint been in the trade long relatively, but I am considering calling it a day and moving on to other things; we'll see over the next months. I'm not bitter about it. The good news... it will be one less competition (at least where I live) to share the slim pickings with.... oh wait, there are hundreds of others still :-)

The long time (e.g. >40 years established firms I know of are doing alright...they always have; actually even some of them say its tough and if it wasnt for other sidelines (whatever that means) and their regular large contracts, it might be a bit more tricky.

Now then...before the smoking ban and beer prices rising and cheap booze etc....I could make a better living gigging! :-) Fondly remember that time... even that 'past-time' has all changed these days.

Ho hum
 28 September 2017 04:03 PM
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Alcomax

Posts: 231
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....I could make a better living gigging! :-) Fondly remember that time... even that 'past-time' has all changed these days.



Too right....most seem to do it for free or peanuts nowadays. I blame "Britain's got talent" , everybody is a star!

Pub gig circa 1990 £150/£185 no freebies
last few years......£ 0 to £185 ish
 28 September 2017 07:34 PM
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whjohnson

Posts: 934
Joined: 24 January 2009

Got chatting to a couple of Western Power guys last week and they were telling me about WPD negotiating a deal with other DNOs to go out to the British Virgin Islands to carry out repairs on the networks damaged by the recent hurricane.

They told me they'd been offered £1K/per day whilst there, but they'd be living in tents.
They said they were all set to go, but the UK Govt got involved and the plan has been put on hold.

It seems the UK Govt didn't like private companies getting together to pool resources and go out there to act independently - the foreign office would been seen to be lacking initiative!

Meanwhile, here's me working in the east midlands for £18.75/hr!

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Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
 29 September 2017 10:53 AM
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tomgunn

Posts: 3916
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Originally posted by: psychicwarrior

Ahh that age old devil called money! the love of it is the root..... etc



Imagine an enlightened new system where money does not exist - the system works differently and for a different purpose......bet you can't fathom it :-)



Any way, I aint been in the trade long relatively, but I am considering calling it a day and moving on to other things; we'll see over the next months. I'm not bitter about it. The good news... it will be one less competition (at least where I live) to share the slim pickings with.... oh wait, there are hundreds of others still :-)



The long time (e.g. >40 years established firms I know of are doing alright...they always have; actually even some of them say its tough and if it wasnt for other sidelines (whatever that means) and their regular large contracts, it might be a bit more tricky.



Now then...before the smoking ban and beer prices rising and cheap booze etc....I could make a better living gigging! :-) Fondly remember that time... even that 'past-time' has all changed these days.



Ho hum


Well, theres a fing! I worked for many large firms and it only took one poor payer to see them hit the dust after many years of honest trading - told a few that I could make them much more money but they were all too scared of me making money... not so clever on them.

I would recommend you to move on to pastures greener than sparking... I am somewhat a newbie as I have only been in it for 50 years and... counting!

God luck in whatever you decide to do but I guess it'll be an easier and less stressful life than sparking!

regards... Me.

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handyTRADESMAN

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 02 October 2017 05:12 PM
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EEDavid

Posts: 2
Joined: 14 September 2017

Be thankful of what you do have, your £18.75 ph +, the Competent Persons Scheme, BS 7671 and Registered Bodies 'Scam Fees' as some call them. I would love to give NICEIC £500 a year but there would be no point what so ever, it would not benefit me at all.
I am a sole trader, current 17th Ed with 2394 & 2395 and I am currently looking at going Gas Safe as my current certificates aren't worth even using as toilet paper.
A bit of back ground info in case there are a few???. I am in Northern Ireland and in case you don't know, there are no Building Regulations for Electrical work, no CPS, no Part P and no enforceable laws for electrical work. NICEIC and others will still take your money but to what benefit when there are no laws in force!!

Some may be thinking that's great, no control and you can do what the hell you want!!

But imagine this; Simple visit to quote for an unfinished refurb of a large 4 bed bungalow. Complete second fix, oil boiler & system connections and lighting circuits to be installed plus other bits. No materials required as the original electrician (Who had decided to take 3 weeks off for a new baby!!) had left enough to complete the work. Noted all details required but just before I left I asked to see what cable he had left behind.

Was I glad to see 4 new full rolls, 2.5 T&E, 1.5 T&E, 1.5 Single Natural and 1.5 Live & E............ But wait WTF??? New full rolls of old colours!!!!! All Black & Red.

So I explained to the customer that under no circumstances would I install what was left and I would supply new cable as required. After explaining why, he did say - "But that's what he has been using to wire the house"

Anyway, I quoted 3.5 days for a team of 2 to complete the work at £20ph, I will let you do the maths but he declined as this was more than what the original bloke had quoted for the complete refurb!!

In case you were thinking this was 8-10 years ago, this was 30th Sep 2017!!

We get priced out of jobs by those quoting £10 - £15ph as with the laws over here a 10 year old kid can wire a house.

Our only hope is that Stormont don't reform a government and we go to Direct Rule via the UK. At least then I can petition the UK Government that NI fall in line with England & Wales or Scotland & Part P.
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