IET logo
 
IET
Decrease font size
Increase font size
Topic Title: wrong trade
Topic Summary:
Created On: 23 September 2017 09:56 PM
Status: Read Only
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
1 2 3 4 Next Last unread
Search Topic Search Topic
Topic Tools Topic Tools
View similar topics View similar topics
View topic in raw text format. Print this topic.
 23 September 2017 09:56 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



dustydazzler

Posts: 1362
Joined: 19 January 2016

just met up with an old mate who has changed careers recently and become a tiler of all things (he was a sparky amongst other things in a previous life)
He charges £45-50 per sq metre and is booked up until late Feb with domestic work.
on a good day with good preparation he reckons he can earn £500.
my reaction was , I'm in the wrong trade

thoughts ?
 24 September 2017 08:28 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



leckie

Posts: 4329
Joined: 21 November 2008

I'm always very suspicious when I hear things like that.

Firstly, people tend to quote their best days pay not the average day. So on a good day, after he has already spend time preparing to job, picked up materials, attended to quote, etc., say 2 hours work, he makes £500. He might also have spent 10 hours on site and knocked his pipe out. So on his best day that might be £500 for 12 hours work, not to be sniffed at. On his average day he might make £300 for the same work, so that £25 per hour if it took 12 hours of time in total or £37.50 per hour if he made this in 8 hours, very good.

When I employed people I used to get guys telling me all the time about how much their mates were earning on other firms, trying to pressurise me into paying them more. I used to explain that I was providing a van, holiday pay, plant, travel time and a good hourly rate, and that they only wanted to work 8 hours on site. Whereas the high earning mate of theirs was having to provide there own transport, plant and tools, and drive for an hour plus each way, to go sub-contracting for 10-12 hours a day on site. I also used to ask if their mate was during a nice new van, had a luxury car, and a high end house. Invariably this was not the case and so I would suggest that they asked their mate why this was if they were on such a fortune. That was the end of the conversation or they could of course go and apply for this wonderful career change.
 24 September 2017 11:29 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



coastelectrics

Posts: 83
Joined: 19 June 2006

I would say that just about all other trades now earn more than electricians and its a sad fact that people don't seem to respect electricians or want to spend money on electrical work - electrics being something that's so taken for granted its always at the bottom of the agenda even when it an integral part of any alteration or improvement (how often have you been called to a job to find all the other trades were nearly finished) and how I hate going to a job, opening a right can of worms and have to tell the customer it going cost more, sorry but I've just become depressed about the whole thing
 24 September 2017 12:06 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



dustydazzler

Posts: 1362
Joined: 19 January 2016

not to mention the fact that the last time I checked , tillers and painters and plasters don't need to pay a grand in scam fees every year.
so they not only earn more per 'average' day but are a grand infront of us before a penny even drops
 24 September 2017 03:16 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



leckie

Posts: 4329
Joined: 21 November 2008

Well let's make sure we're not comparing apples and oranges.

First, let's compare the wage rates for subbies, not on the books trades. So working for another contractor as a subbie. So for that you don't need to be in a scheme, the company sorts that out. If you look at large construction sites, the electrician in say the midlands would be on about £18-20 /hour day work rate. Plumbers might be on a bit more, but on day work subbing, not much more. Painters and tilers on day work would be less.

Now think about the same setup but this time the trades are on a price. Painters, carpenters, brickies, tillers and plasterers are barely always on a price. They also have mind numbingly boring jobs. They get paid well for slogging their guts out. If want price work as an electrician you
Basically have to do house bashing or metal munching, conduit, etc. It's a trade that doesn't lend itself to price work. It's not as physically hard as plastering, and wet plastering is a very skilled job, but after you had done it for a while you would be bored out of your mind.

Bricklayers earn very good money, but miss lots of days and time due to rain and frost, etc. Also hard work and extremely monotonous.

So, electricians have a physically easier job with more variety and interest, and you don't often miss days due to weather. So I reckon it evens out.

If you have your own business you have to charge enough to cover additional overheads, so instead of £19/hr, it should be nearer £30 as a lower end price in say the midlands for example.

I know I would rather do electrical work that painting, tiling or plastering, but might just be me.
 24 September 2017 03:45 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



coastelectrics

Posts: 83
Joined: 19 June 2006

Since you put it that way Leckie I'm feeling better already- morale and self esteem rising. my earlier post followed an entire morning filling out EICRs and installation certificates. Brings me to another point - what do people do with these reports and certificates you spend hours preparing but you've got to justify to the customer the time spent.(Typical response: the last electrician didn't give me any certificate/got it but it'll be in loft somewhere/recycled.
 24 September 2017 04:01 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



dustydazzler

Posts: 1362
Joined: 19 January 2016

I suspect more certs get filed in the bin sooner or later.
We get out boiler 'safety' checked by BG every year. I have a nice little pile of BG safety tick sheets rolled up shoved behind the pipes in the airing cupboard ready for when we come to sell the house.
I agree Leckie that training to become a full time electrician should bring with it a more varied working week , rather than just slapping paint on a ceiling 5 days a week.
It just seem odd to me that given we pay annual scam fees and train for 2-4 years possibly longer, that a site painter or site tiler would be on a very similar day rate if not more.
 24 September 2017 05:09 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



Alcomax

Posts: 231
Joined: 12 November 2009

Reasoning by comparison to the supposed remuneration of other trades will not necessarily help an electrician understand why so little "value" is attributed to the craft of electrical installation by the greater part of society. Leckies last comments gave as good an answer as you are going to get if you are to compare with other crafts.

BS7671 hangs heavy on those in the trade. You either do, you don't or you pretend to. Good clients know the difference, but the vast majority do not give a fetid dingos kidneys.

That is what we have always been up against. There is more profit in a lower standard. That standard becomes the most accepted as it is "competitive".

Like it or not there is a one size fits all perception of what is an "electrician". Nothing to do with any "qualification" , experience and, importantly "supervision", it is about the end result, satisfying the expectation of the client . It is presumed all electricians provide the same standard. Those in the industry absolutely know this to not be the case. As a standard BS7671 is far too unweildy to fully implement for most tasks associated with electrical work, so it is ommited on cost. As for certification, the model forms "inspection schedules" have become so convoluted as to have next to no value.


Ah that's better!
 24 September 2017 07:44 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



FizzleBang

Posts: 1309
Joined: 05 January 2007

The average home owner doesn't see any skill in electrical work. They are ignorant of the technical aspect, so long as the light or socket works they are happy. A very average DIY'er can make electrical things work with zero skill.

Now, plastering, tiling, bricklaying and the like are highly skilled. They are all about the appearance of the finished job and that's all the customer cares about. They'll pay good money for things that look right. They have no interest in the impenetrable legislation and qualifications that an electrician thinks make him valuable.

When I got out of it, I thought it would be temporary until the economy turned the corner. Now I know i'm better off keeping out.

-------------------------
To me, to you
 24 September 2017 08:01 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



leckie

Posts: 4329
Joined: 21 November 2008

Well what do you do now Fizzle?
 24 September 2017 08:21 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



geoffsd

Posts: 1709
Joined: 15 June 2010

The drop in rates must be the fault of some doing the work for that amount.

That plumbers etc. don't do it cheaper is because they don't do it cheaper.
 24 September 2017 08:25 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



jonny705

Posts: 153
Joined: 26 September 2015

£50m2 for just over 10 tiles laid - which would take how long to do? so over 100k a year for a roofer, Well you can get around £2500+ to over-skim a house , but not every week is the key thing really.

I got a vague feeling I ,might be charging too little looking at other people hourly rates, but if I get undercut all the time and have to bring some money in a week what can i do?

I went part 'P' etc 2 years ago and got all up to date ,etc ,a a considerable cost, and have I generated loads of work because I can legally pass off my work ? No, most people would not even care about a certificate let alone if the council finds out or not .

I don't honestly know what to do now as I am about to have to renew my Part P status at either £300 or £500 depending who you are with , plus the 18th means my £250 worth of books will soon be worthless and go on the Defunct electrical collection bookshelf as no-one wants to buy them.
Back to college to get updated for the 18th to allow you to be qualified to get Part P status next year.

My post regarding eicr on old property's last week brought it home to me , no legislation at all is required for landlords etc, but I have to 'prove ' to a governing body I am competent even though I have my C&G's etc, Risk assessments /methods statements, all the new piles of paperwork you need to replace basic common sense really, and employing someone is a legal minefield.

Each year , although you might have submitted 30 re-wires that year, you still have to 'Prove ' competency again , and pay the same amount, even though it's pretty unlikely you would be less experienced than the last time you were tested isn't it? But no the full fee again please, honestly you are not getting ripped off.

You can get £80-100 a day cash labouring, I think if I was younger I would do it, no worries /exams/money to pay out , just basic hard work, have a laugh, when your are finished you simply go home and chill, no paperwork /data to check/materials to order etc ,etc

Where's me spade?
 24 September 2017 08:43 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



geoffsd

Posts: 1709
Joined: 15 June 2010

It's time the system and schemes were done away with.

They were brought in to regulate ancillary trades doing electrical work - and electricians were included.

Then in 2013, the notification requirements were, in England, relaxed , thus removing these ancillary trades from the need to register (except plumbers fitting new electric showers), so, apart from that, now the only people having to register are electricians.

You'd think the NICEIC and Napit would lobby for this - oh wait.
 24 September 2017 09:05 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



KFH

Posts: 537
Joined: 06 November 2010

I have a friend who is a reasonable plasterer and keeps busy but he hates it, I know a couple of older plastered (autocricket strikes again should be plasterers) with bad arthritis. I know people who work as labourers but they have problems when they older due to years of physical work taking a toll on their bodies. I know some of us also suffer from bad knees etc as we get older but we have options to do other things if we are lucky or capable.So while the grass can look greener I am not always convinced it is not just artificial grass. However when standing in a muddy hole in the middle of a very muddy field in heavy rain trying to terminate 25mm 4core SWA into a junction box mounted on a pole anything appears preferable.

I think we are undervalued because there are so many "electricians" out there who do not produce documentation, ignore BS7671 if it makes the job more complicated/expensive and who can do the job cheaply as a result. I am sure that we have all seen and often had to rectify the results. The customer is concerned about price and appearance and not the intricacies of BS7671. How many people are dying as a result of poor installation work, not enough to worry anyone?

I feel I have been lucky that most of my customers have believed me when I have explained why their installation needs rectification work before I can do the simple job they actually want done and if they don't I have been in the fortunate position that I was usually not desperate for their work.

Finally while I can do a good job of tiling, it takes me forever, I hate doing it and I could never earn a living at it. It ranks much lower than standing in that hole in the field.
 24 September 2017 11:03 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



dustydazzler

Posts: 1362
Joined: 19 January 2016

Originally posted by: geoffsd

It's time the system and schemes were done away with.



They were brought in to regulate ancillary trades doing electrical work - and electricians were included.



Then in 2013, the notification requirements were, in England, relaxed , thus removing these ancillary trades from the need to register (except plumbers fitting new electric showers), so, apart from that, now the only people having to register are electricians.



You'd think the NICEIC and Napit would lobby for this - oh wait.


scam registered sparks are at a handicap before we even lift a neon screwdriver in anger.
the whole partpee scam was invented to some how monitor the plumber and diyers but in reality it just made the honest sparks business a grand a year more expensive to operate. and for what.
so you can say you belong to a scam that 99.9% of householders have never even heard of. genius
 25 September 2017 12:55 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



leckie

Posts: 4329
Joined: 21 November 2008

Well I don't know how true these figures are, but there some interesting details and comments regarding the differences sending on your employment status, which was one of the points I was trying to make.

http://www.tradeskills4u.co.uk...trician-salary-survey

If your are a plumber and working with gas you also need to be gas safe registered. And there are varying requirements for LPG, etc. I think if you fit wood burners you need some sort of registration.

The trouble with pay rates is that they are set by the trades theirselves. If you charge low you get the jobs, and there are companies that will charge very tightly to win jobs, market forces. As has been said, much of the general public just want the cheapest price and just hope the work will be ok. In my experience, over time you build a customer base, and if you are good the customers are willing to pay a bit more rather than play electricians Russian roulette.

Don't worry about what you earn in a good week, concern yourself with what do you earn net in a year.

All this stuff about paying a scheme £300-£500 a year is a bit silly really. £2 a day max. Probably the maximum it costs per day to be a sparks over and above that of being a carpenter is about £5
 25 September 2017 03:19 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



dustydazzler

Posts: 1362
Joined: 19 January 2016

But Leckie its not 'just' £2 or £3 or £4 per day when like myself due to health and family issues I can only work part time.
So scam membership is a massive financial burden of which I estimate can cost me around £150 per notifiable job. This really hurts my bottom line.
I know I can get the homeowner to register the job after the fact and pay the LBC to come out and vet the job.
But likewise this can work out very expensive on a modest rewire for example.
Not every electrician is working flat out 6 days per week absorbing the scam costs like they are a trivial matter.
To me £500-£1000 per year overhead ontop of the usual expenses is a big deal.
 25 September 2017 08:26 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



tomgunn

Posts: 3916
Joined: 25 May 2005

On a good day - maybe BUT, there are far too many Polish / Europeans here... no, I'm NOT bashing our friends from the EU countries... again, look, I do tiling as one of my trades... I'd like to show you some examples of huge tiling sets of works but Googles Chrome is blocking 'flash' objects... gotta sort that out today on my site. SO, I don't go by the square metre - I look at the floor area and wall are's etc... then I usually feel what time it would take..., (I think that the price per square metreage was something like £25 to £35???), like to go for £200 per day on price, knowing if I worked at it then I could make some more. Priced a large bathroom a year or so ago and the client really wanted me to do it but emailed me to ask if I could knock off some £200 off of the price... but I said no as I have done this in the past only to regret it half way through any works... she had some foreign chap that was cheaper, I don't know his origin so cannot say... to say you'll make £500 per day is a farce - yes we can all do a one off project and make that but overall... not every day!

The thing is... doing tiling isn't overall, a quick process... doing the returns and edging takes time!! Its not a quick wham-bam thank you mam job! I have seen 'quick' works and you can see bad workmanship!

I was talking to my neighbour this weekend and he has a Polish plumber who charges £100 per day... another European that charges £120 per day for pebble-dashing, thats something that I also do very well!!

SO, IF I had a mortgage... a wife and two kids to support, as I used to along with 2 wabbits, then I would.. SINK! I don't share a room with 6 other labourers' - wages have gone down. as far as I can see!

Anyways - 'av a nice day!

regards - Tom

-------------------------
Tom.... (The TERMINATOR).

handyTRADESMAN

Castle Builders

Edited: 25 September 2017 at 08:46 AM by tomgunn
 25 September 2017 01:09 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



jonny705

Posts: 153
Joined: 26 September 2015

The thing with saying I am silly moaning about the cost of joining a CPS , is not so much the money at all, it's the fact you are not really getting anything for it are you?

It is quite clear from the many , many threads on the net I have read about Part P that most sparks don't agree with it, if anything see it as a way of deceiving the public you are competent.
It's also evident from the evidence /statistics etc, that it has done nothing to combat bodging or stop anymore deaths etc- just like the metal consumer board issue ,its legislation , but not well thought out legislation.

It's simply money for nothing- an example of this is -To get on the 'Trust Mark site' you have to be part of a CPS scheme, all they do is submit your details to the site. Stroma charge you £50 NIC £120 What's the difference in admin/time costs between them, Is it value for money, Shouldn't you just go on it automatically after paying to prove to whoever you are competent, no because its another way of making money out of you.

As to the figures on that Trade site regarding salaries, a painter on nearly £500 a week , just no way in a million years where I live (Midlands), the painters that done our estate up last year in Coventry travelled from Birmingham, and were on price work -a Garage door was £5!
The thing that really annoyed the older guys though was not so much the crap money ,but the fact that they actually were time served ,but couldn't do a decent job with pride anymore - it was literally painting over dirt cobwebs etc - just soul destroying for them.

I see being all up to date qualified etc as a double edged sword as , you have to do everything by the book , all liability traced back to you , be sued to death if you electrocuted someone etc.

Or you could not care about certification /qualification /Insurance etc, plead stupidly as a defence if you killed someone , and the lack of any overheads etc, means you are likely to be on the same weekly rate as me.

The Industry IMO, domestic side is proper messed up - I feel another thread starting on it
 25 September 2017 01:34 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



dustydazzler

Posts: 1362
Joined: 19 January 2016

I wish electricians would give me £500 a year , every single year simply to carry on doing what they were doing before

Nice little earner for whom ever is collecting the cash
IET » Wiring and the regulations » wrong trade

1 2 3 4 Next Last unread
Topic Tools Topic Tools
Statistics

New here?


See Also:



FuseTalk Standard Edition v3.2 - © 1999-2017 FuseTalk Inc. All rights reserved.

..