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Topic Title: Never been Tested
Topic Summary: No legal requirments for Landlords.
Created On: 19 September 2017 08:04 PM
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 19 September 2017 08:04 PM
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jonny705

Posts: 153
Joined: 26 September 2015

I am about to do a board change for my friend/neighbour , she is renting her flat out at the end of the month. It's not been touched from the 70's although had bits added , but no new circuits etc. So All wiring and associated parts 45 years old.

I said the Letting agent will likely want to see an EICR form , but was going to do it for her at the end of the job for free as will have to do most of the testing anyway when I change the board.

She was saying today that they didn't need anything at all and wasn't bothered, just to let her know what the appliances energy ratings were.

Now I know it's not a legal requirement to provide an EICR for your tenants if you let your property, but I cannot believe a Estate Agent wound not recommended , some sort of check , to potentially protect the owner ,knowing it's never been checked in 45 years.

I know there is a divide on opinions ,that EICR's should be a legal requirement , as they could generate false work ,put rent up etc, but I really think there should be something in place that makes it mandatory after say 30 years or over old.

Renting a property with rewireable fuses , and the associated lack of common sense and bodging today, is got to be just wrong on so many levels.
 19 September 2017 08:16 PM
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geoffsd

Posts: 1702
Joined: 15 June 2010

The Government appears to disagree with you.

Perhaps they think the (very low) number of casualties suggests there is no need.


Bearing in mind the queries on here regarding EICRs do you think it would be of any real benefit?
 19 September 2017 08:27 PM
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Alcomax

Posts: 231
Joined: 12 November 2009

Originally posted by: geoffsd

The Government appears to disagree with you.



Perhaps they think the (very low) number of casualties suggests there is no need.





Bearing in mind the queries on here regarding EICRs do you think it would be of any real benefit?


As above, agree.

Older installations, installed to a good standard and pretty much as "original spec" and not messed about with too much, could well be better fit for service than some more recent examples of new work I have seen.

BS3036's should not been routinely condemned. At the same time a new spangly "17th edition" DB could be covering up an installation as rough as the badgers proverbial.
 19 September 2017 08:37 PM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 1338
Joined: 19 January 2016

I have seem way more 'modern' instalations that are total Badgers work compared than older installs
If I had a pound for every twist and tap joint found on a downlighting fitted in the last few years (brown blue cores) I would be a rich man (well about 50 quid better off)
 19 September 2017 11:16 PM
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ebee

Posts: 6340
Joined: 02 December 2004

"Bearing in mind the queries on here regarding EICRs do you think it would be of any real benefit? "

Geoff you are just being cynical?
(And spot on as well though!).

Letting agents etc do not give a monkeys.
they say "oh the lektriks been checked" but offer no written proof.

And when you look at rented properties you think "My Labrador dog could see what`s wrong with this installation as soon as he walks thru door".

It is rife. Nobody gives a Castlemaine 4X about it.

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 19 September 2017 11:33 PM
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ebee

Posts: 6340
Joined: 02 December 2004

As an aside I know one decent landord.
Let`s call him Richard.
He is an director of one of the national associations of landlords, Connected internaitionally in similar roles - goes to to Belguim a lot and was a lifeboat cox too.
All round good bloke.
He personally rents a few properties and makes sure that electrics and everything else is in decent state.

He once told me "I know there is no law mandating a period inspection but there are laws demanding electrical (and other) safety. How the heck would one prove they`d tried to fullfill this obligation other than having a periodic?"

He is unusual, not many like Richard

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 20 September 2017 01:03 AM
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geoffsd

Posts: 1702
Joined: 15 June 2010

Pragmatic and cynical.

Well done Richard, but - and a big but - how does he know that the EICR has been carried out effectively?
Would they, even if done dilligently, have discovered the faults that have led to the most publicised recent tragic cases?

If such a scheme were introduced then it would surely be necessary for inspection of the inspectors bearing in mind that anyone is allowed to do EICRs.

There simply is no need for this to be introduced.
 20 September 2017 09:07 AM
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jonny705

Posts: 153
Joined: 26 September 2015

Looking at an Irish site on domestic deaths most seem to have been caused by outside equipment , so I guess that is what resulted in' RCD protection when used outside' law.

I suppose Statistically there isn't many deaths, compared with say Carbon Monoxide poisoning.

But then if that's the logical /obvious conclusion, e.g.: it's not really worth it , then what's the whole point of part 'P' and metal consumer boards as statistically, there is no definite proof either have helped, there is just so many variables.

You can get a installation that is stuck in the 70's ,never been meddled with and as you say still fine, but that's not very often is it, you normally will find bathroom/Kitchens has been done at some point.
Bs 3036 fuses are fine for disconnection times , but the amount of ones I have replaced ,and more often than not the lighting circuit will have a 30a fuse wire in it, as they are so easy to put in compared to the 6 amp wire which snaps.

If this was the case and the resulting overload caused a fire and killed everyone, I cannot believe you would have no legal right/hope to sue either the Landlord or Estate agent for killing your family, as 'it's not a legal requirement mate sorry' I would not be too pleased.

Yet you can successfully sue the council because your child falls from a climbing frame because your too busy on your phone, gets load of money and the park gets closed down ,because of the potentially H&S risk.

I just think how tight can you be as either a landlord or owner not to want you house checked in 45 years of ownership for around £150?
 20 September 2017 09:40 AM
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alancapon

Posts: 6881
Joined: 27 December 2005

It is a question of appetite for risk really. If the worst did happen, then everyone would go after the landlord in the first instance to prove the property was safe to let. If they can hold up a recent EICR (and I'll leave others to fight out how recent it needs to be), which says the electrics are safe, the action is then jointly against the electrician that carried out the inspection. Hopefully they have the backing of Professional Indemnity Insurance to transfer their financial risk onwards.

If you feel BS3036 fuses shouldn't be there and you are undertaking the EICR, you need to mention it. You can't code it with a reg number, as BS7671 currently accepts them as suitable for continued use.

Regards,

Alan.
 20 September 2017 01:51 PM
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KFH

Posts: 534
Joined: 06 November 2010

My daughter rented out her house via a agency managed contract for a while. Every year or two they would organise a PIR, every time the inspector commented on the lack of RCD protection on the socket circuits as the sockets could be used to supply outside appliances. All the socket circuits had RCBOs which as he did not recognise them as such were never tested.

Having done a fair few rented property EICRs I have found all sort of stuff that needed sorting, usually on tenants modifications, about 1/2 were fails despite new Consumer units being fitted a few years before.
 20 September 2017 05:34 PM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 1338
Joined: 19 January 2016

I have seem some wicked tenant wiring modifications in my time , from 13amp sockets next to the bath in bathrooms to power a tv or charge a laptop to smoke alarms ripped form ceilings with the bare conductors flapping in the wind ,
Not even a new consumer unit is the answer to sheer stupidity
 20 September 2017 09:26 PM
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jonny705

Posts: 153
Joined: 26 September 2015

Well having just come back from the C/B change I was talking about ......

Bonding obviously undersize.

6 Circuits:
1 x 6a Lights with an additional 1.0mm supply going to a electric garage door opener.
1x 32 amp Cooker radial - OK.
1x32 amp Ring Final- One had a line continuity but not earth or the Neutral, so I thought-ah well maybe put it on x2 radials.
3x 32 Ring finals- well they each had two cables in, but none were rings , tried every one ,to see if they had get mixed up but no- no continuity between any of them.

So 8 radials theoretically ,put them in just so she could have some power and one of them tripped board, so took it out - worry about that one tomorrow, temporary put lights back in , was getting dark and wanting to go home, tripped board -this I did trace to a N/E fault on cable but who knows where it is - worry about that one tomorrow.

Said I have a present for you tonight - two table lamps

Glad she is my friend!
 20 September 2017 09:56 PM
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Zs

Posts: 3814
Joined: 20 July 2006

Fair Play jonny, I'd love a gift like that and she is in good hands.

Earlier this year I rented a place for work days on which at the time of rent I commented on the electrics to the estate agent in terms of them needing attention. They told me they would not pay attention to them. Us lot can see things because we have been around the block a few times.

Two week's after moving in the power failure, near fire and melted incomer event turned out to be because of the incoming cables being behind the cage clamps and not in them.

I fought it tooth and nail but eventually threw in the towel when a response came back with an inappropriate personal comment. At that point I decided that if it had descend to such a level I can't be doing dealing with a load of incompetent ten year olds and left them to blow up the national grid on their own.

I am so glad she is your friend too. She owes you the most massive hug and a bottle of whatever you poison is. You can tell her that from me. She is very lucky to have you. Otherwise you get me round there and I'll suck my teeth and split the fortune I charge her with you It is why we are what we are.

Zs
 21 September 2017 08:35 AM
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CMK3PD

Posts: 65
Joined: 23 September 2016

Interesting the differences between countries in the UK. In Scotland private landlords are required to have EICR's carried out at least every 5 years
.
Landlord's Responsibilities
2. Private landlords in Scotland are required by law to ensure that a rented house meets the repairing standard at the start of a tenancy and throughout a tenancy. One part of the repairing standard is that -
? The installations in the house for the supply of electricity,
? Electrical fixtures and fittings, and
? Any appliances provided by the landlord under the tenancy
Are in a reasonable state of repair and in proper working order.
 21 September 2017 01:08 PM
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geoffsd

Posts: 1702
Joined: 15 June 2010

We shall have to wait and see if a wonderful improvement occurs in Scotland.

Was it particularly bad before?
 21 September 2017 09:57 PM
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jonny705

Posts: 153
Joined: 26 September 2015

Well the house that was 40 odd years old ,that needed no EICR because what was likely to be wrong with it had the following faults :

N/E fault on lighting circuit, when I took fitting down to check 3 had no earths and were class 1.

One radial Circuit also with a N/E fault was a chaffed cable that had been twisted /damaged through the original 30mm conduit and fed a socket in the boiler room.

The Main House /Kitchen ring, was a nightmare to trace- a Kitchen had been fitted about a year earlier and new sockets fitted in living room.

I had 2 sockets with high reading with l/N linked and when I took them off the wires just basically fell-out.

So started checking them all, and every single one was a bodge , the original wires in the double sockets were stranded 2.5 twisted together with a pointy end bit which was in the sockets too small cable holes, most just fell out as you took them off , there was 5 earths which would have caused lost continuity.

The wires were all two short and they had obviously rotated sockets round to enable them to wire them , and loosened the wires in the process.
Oh, and two phase conductors had the screws just biting on insulation, these were on the 2 only kitchen socket's that had a toaster/kettle/microwave on.

I ended up through crimping as you couldn't do anything else there was no wire left to play with, and 4 were under, in the back of the kitchen units.
I finished with reading s on .0.46/0.45 on the L/N so was worth the effort.
It just proves to me that houses this old, should be checked if you want to let to a 3rd Party, that's paying you lots of money in rent and surely deserves safe environment to live in- the above was not safe IMO.

For the people who don't think they should be ever checked , would you be happy to let your loved ones live in it, if you as a electrician, say clocked a load of things wrong when visiting , would you think statistically they are unlikely to get burnt down /electrocuted so turn a blind eye and not say a thing?

I am speaking to the Building Inspector, about a HMO property ,tomorrow, as I have read a few sites about the 5 year EICR being mandatory ,like Scotland but honestly not sure , plus the alarms needed also is something I would like to Clarify with him.
 21 September 2017 10:56 PM
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geoffsd

Posts: 1702
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No one is saying that installations should not be checked, BUT do you think that legislation will result in people as dilligent as you doing it.

It is reported that there are £40 landlord certificates which allow letting agents to pass the buck.

Would you do them for that? If not, do you think you will get the work?

HMOs are controlled already.
 21 September 2017 11:22 PM
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mapj1

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For the people who don't think they should be ever checked , would you be happy to let your loved ones live in it, if you as a electrician, say clocked a load of things wrong when visiting , would you think statistically they are unlikely to get burnt down /electrocuted so turn a blind eye and not say a thing?

An interesting one, as when in the UK I do comment.
I also have parts of my wife's family living in the 220 volt part of Brasil, and it is very hard indeed not to comment on what is standard practice there, things like showers fed by surface singles, no CPC to anything at all, very few RCDs, and lights and power on breakers and cable sizes that are not co-ordinated. This is before we get to the twist and tape joints in appliance flexes, and a tendency to poke wire ends in the socket rather than the trouble of buying a plug, even in places like cafes with public present.
We wont even blink at 110V and 220V using the same plugs and sockets, perfectly officially.
My point is not that Brazil is awful, though to British eyes a lot of it looks hair-raising, but to note their electrocution figures per million of the population, while a bit higher than ours, are not greatly so (maybe 10% higher averaged over a few years.).
I think folk actually look after themselves quite well when things actually look and feel a bit dangerous.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 22 September 2017 10:44 AM
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jonny705

Posts: 153
Joined: 26 September 2015

I remember working in Spain years ago and, when it rained , the lights would sizzle and dim on and off , extensions across floor , totally not waterproof it was strange to see.

My best friend Loves India and has took pictures of some of the wiring He has watched someone crash a bike there -knocked unconscious, and the cars that stopped , were not there to help, but to move him and his bike off the road as he was holding them up.

Another friend got ran over by a local in Thailand, and broke both his legs , when the Police came they said 'well if you had not come on holiday here you would not have been ran over so it's your fault'- But like Brazil , life is the cheap in these countries.

I am sure though if there was no legal requirement for gas checks/MOT'S , insurance etc, most people would not have it, its unfortunate legislation is the only thing that gets people to do them most of the time and not there conscience or common sence.
 22 September 2017 10:54 AM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 1338
Joined: 19 January 2016

im sure I have mentioned this story before. but my parents have a small apartment in crete and one summer when on holiday I noticed a load of tiny lights in the ornamental flower beds (rockery) around the complex. the cables were all interconnected with 5amp connector strip just laying on the ground in any amongst the flower beds.
I pointed this out to the complex manager who said 'if people are walking on my flower beds they deserve to get a shock'
I guess he had a point
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