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Topic Title: LABEL FOR USE AFTER A PERIODIC INSPECTION AND TEST
Topic Summary: Your views please?
Created On: 14 July 2016 07:26 PM
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 15 July 2016 10:48 AM
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OMS

Posts: 22359
Joined: 23 March 2004

Originally posted by: ebee

Too many


Wrong answer Ebee - we cannot eliminate death. As a society we need to decide what is "acceptable" and put a monetary value to that

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 15 July 2016 10:58 AM
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ebee

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I think it was a good answer OMS, although a little "tongue in cheek" sort of answer.

Anyway I did not know the actual answer .

If just one life can be saved it is important to that actual one or those close to the one but to society at large then not very significant in the scheme of things.

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 15 July 2016 02:17 PM
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Angram

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I agree the label currently implies a safe installation, but the people at risk from a C1 or C2 installation are never going to see a label inside a cosumer unit before they suffer whatever fate has in store for them.

If responsible people don't read EICRs carefully and others don't demand to see them at all we seem to have a problem which is unlikely to be solved by pretty coloured labels hidden inside a metal box.

Fail labels are a good idea but not nearly good enough IMHO.

Angram.
 15 July 2016 03:49 PM
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mapj1

Posts: 9371
Joined: 22 July 2004

And to give perspective - how many people died last year from electrical incidents resulting from fixed wiring - remind me again ?


Less than ten. At a million pounds per life, a micromort costs £1

Barely enough to justify retaining ADS, let alone introducing part P - most of the time, single fault to danger would be enough.

But even in your hospital example, I suspect you'd want to label, maybe even lock off any part of the installation that posed an immediate danger, and I'd be surprised if that was not already procedure.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 15 July 2016 04:49 PM
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leckie

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This is quite simple really isn't it? We are required to affix a label that gives information, but we seem to agree that people in domestic, commercial and industrial situations are misunderstanding what the label means. So it is obviously not fulfilling its purpose, it's purpose is not to confuse people.

So we can change the label to something that it's easier to understand, or we can try to educate the population of Great Britain. It is pretty obvious that we are not going to succeed in educating the masses. We don't always get to speak to occupiers or users of installations. Half the time an EICR is handed over to a landlord or to someone who is about to sell a building or rent to a new occupier. They will see the sticker, and as already agreed, will possibly misunderstand it.

Also remember that the regs already indicate a difference in installations in terms of an EICR. The model form is for installations up to 100A. So the more complex installations can a different label if required, more applicable to their situation.

Is there anything to say we cannot design our own labels anyway? If I made a label in accordance with the one in the regs but enlarged it to include the outcome and a reference of an EICR is that still compliant?

Another thing I see, PI labels fixed for an addition of a cautious or similar. Again, see model label does not work, it is too easy for sending to assume it refers to all of the installation. How would a new occupier know any different?

Regarding asking how many peolple get killed each year, what's that got to do with it? People don't get killed every year due to people using incorrect colour cable cores, not using earth sleeping, etc. It doesn't mean we should not try to do thing properly does it. Colours give people an indication of the conductors use. Using any old colour would confuse people, bit like the PI label confuse people that an installation is safe when it may not be.
 15 July 2016 05:24 PM
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rocknroll

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99% of installations are satisfactory for continued use, they been working fine until you get your hands on then, but what I think you mean by the statement "We don't always get to speak to occupiers or users of installations," is we don't get the opportunity to badger them into having unnecessary work done so lets now give them a false sense of security by plastering some form of danger notices around the place, clever move to boost your income.

Regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 15 July 2016 05:27 PM
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sparkingchip

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Of course there is the matter of who owns the report.

Andy
 15 July 2016 05:40 PM
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rocknroll

Posts: 9541
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Originally posted by: sparkingchip

Of course there is the matter of who owns the report.



Andy


Now your getting silly, its just a 'basic' report on the condition of an installation at that moment in time, that's what is says on the tin so why try to glam it up into something it is not.

Regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 15 July 2016 06:14 PM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: sparkingchip

Of course there is the matter of who owns the report.



Andy


The person ordering it - unless you have vested the intellectual property rights

OMS

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Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 15 July 2016 06:26 PM
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OMS

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That was my point Mike - there will be competent persons under the control of an Authorised Person (AP) who has access to the Authorised Engineer (AE) - they will be in liaison with clinicians

We don't need some silly little label appended by a person not in that control authority


Other sectors have similar arrangements

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 15 July 2016 06:45 PM
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John Peckham

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OMS

I will put you down as a no then. I do I&T hospitals but only a bit at a time so only fit labels to the individual DBs not at the origin as you suggest and the BYB requires. Most reference books and industry thinking, including this forum, uses the 8 way Wylex consumer unit in the cupboard under the stairs as a norm not larger installations. Myself and my merry bunch of men and ladies inspect larger installations where we may inspect say 10 boards a year and 10 boards the next year etc to test the whole installation over 5 years so a single label at the origin does not make sense.

Forget al the noise on what is dangerous and what is not, Part P and codes etc, I am saying a label that reflects the outcome as being unsatisfactory directing the user/owner to the EICR is a sensible measure. I don't think it is a matter for education as what the general label in use now means as we know it confuses ordinary people in to thinking the installation is safe until the next recommended test date. The next recommended test date on the EICR has a statement below it to say that the defects are rectified. The label is not big enough for all this information so I am saying a new label should direct people to the EICR.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 15 July 2016 07:31 PM
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sparkingchip

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Originally posted by: OMS

Originally posted by: sparkingchip



Of course there is the matter of who owns the report.







Andy




The person ordering it - unless you have vested the intellectual property rights



OMS


So, some scenarios:

Prospective purchaser of a house pays for a EICR. They then tell the vendor They want a price reduction, because the house needs rewiring and then redecorating, the sale falls through, but the prospective purchaser is not obligated to supply anyone else including the vendor with a copy of the EICR, however there is a sticky label on the old rewirable fuse board that leads subsequent viewers of the property to believe the electrical installation is safe, so no further reports are prepared.


A landlord gets a unsatisfactory EICR on a property, the tenant believes it is okay as there is a sticker on the fuse board, however the landlord decides to leave it to the end of the letting period before undertaking the work, so just gives the letting agent and tenant a copy of the Local Authority paperwork which has been rubber stamped to say the property is okay to let as a EICR has been prepared without either the LA paperwork or sticker indicating there is a problem.

Whoever owns the EICR may withhold it if they wish, unless there is a enforceable requirement or financial incentive to hand it over.

If a prospective purchaser of a property pays for a EICR should the sticker be handed to them to do with as they wish, after all there is no reason they cannot sell the EICR to the vendor or another prospective purchaser, if they decide not to proceed with the purchase themselves.

Andy
 15 July 2016 09:39 PM
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paulskyrme

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OMS, come on you know JP does not seek remedial works.
As do you Rock.
I'm kind of half and half here.
I don't want the remedial works, so I'm fine with the EICR & reporting factually on the condition of the install.
However, if my findings are unsatisfactory, then regardless of what BS7671 & associated guidance says, the sticker says the following day, as does the EICR.
Right, wrong, I don't care, IMHO, I have inspected the install, and due to the nature of the faults present, I, the inspector deem it necessary that the installation is inspected the following day, why, because I consider it unsafe for continued use.
My balls are big enough that I am willing to do this.
Would I recommend that I do the remedial works, would I heck, I would recommend that the client goes to tender.
Why, because I would be confident enough in my codes that there would be no debate, however, if my I&T client came back with the remedial contractor disputing my codes then I would have no qualms in explaining & justifying my recommendations, and I believe that my arguments would be "water tight".

So, I don't believe another label is required, but, I do believe that a different "attitude" is required to the completion of the label, and that should be across the board, and not just the DB.
There is an issue with BS7671 that it does not really adequately cover large installs such as you have suggested OMS, a hospital with multiple boards.
John suggests a label per board, I'd go with that, but BS7671 requires a label at the origin, I'd go with that too, but, the label needs to carry more detail.
TBH, I regularly write additional information onto EICR & EIC labels on the work I do, because normally I am only working on a minor pat of the install.
 15 July 2016 10:00 PM
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leckie

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Originally posted by: rocknroll

99% of installations are satisfactory for continued use, they been working fine until you get your hands on then, but what I think you mean by the statement "We don't always get to speak to occupiers or users of installations," is we don't get the opportunity to badger them into having unnecessary work done so lets now give them a false sense of security by plastering some form of danger notices around the place, clever move to boost your income.



Regards


Err, no. I do not offer remedial work on an EICR, learn to read. Do not judge others by your own standards. It's simple, the label does not work as it is being implemented. The customer, client, or whatever should be properly informed, not led to believe something is safe when it is not. Anymore that it is correct to say something is unsafe when it is safe. Just clarity of information.
 15 July 2016 10:07 PM
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sparkingchip

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Why take the discussions to polar extremes discussing hospitals and domestic installations in the same breath?

The clients are completely different with the hospital electrical installation being managed by professionals and domestic being under the control of those who may dabble in a bit of DIY electrical work.

At a hospital the report will be acted upon, at domestic level many recipients of the report will try and work out if they can do the remedial work themselves, whilst others will just ignore it.

With management systems in place the sticker is not really required in a hospital, it is merely a visual prompt that should not be required. However in a rented flat there could have been ten tenants in the five year retest period stated on a sticker and you are assuming that all of them will understand that the installation was inspected, but may have been deemed unsatisfactory and remedial work not undertaken or was itself worthy of a unsatisfactory rating.

Why are some of you apparently adverse to stating a simple truth?

Andy
 16 July 2016 09:15 AM
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lyledunn

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I never put the damn things on, I always forget! It seems to exite my NICEIC inspector, however, when he writes me up for the omission!

-------------------------
Regards,

Lyle Dunn
 16 July 2016 09:56 AM
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sparkingchip

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I have a printed label across the top of the window screen in the van to remind me when the MOT is due, visual prompts can be useful for periodic events. There was a tax disc, but that's now on direct debit so obsolete.

The information about my vans tax and MOT status is available to anyone who cares to note the make of the vehicle, the registration number and has access to a internet connected device.

So no secrets there.

Yet when we rented a cottage in Wales for a week the EICR sticker on the consumer unit may be hiding a secret.

Andy
 16 July 2016 03:35 PM
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ebee

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Originally posted by: lyledunn

I never put the damn things on, I always forget! It seems to exite my NICEIC inspector, however, when he writes me up for the omission!
t

LOL. That comment made me chuckle Lyle.

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 16 July 2016 03:44 PM
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ebee

Posts: 6340
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Yes officer I had my car MOT inspected.

It failed but at least had it inspected as required by law

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 16 July 2016 06:12 PM
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mapj1

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As you can check here
if you know the number plate and manufacturer.

-------------------------
regards Mike
IET » Wiring and the regulations » LABEL FOR USE AFTER A PERIODIC INSPECTION AND TEST

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