IET logo
 
IET
Decrease font size
Increase font size
Topic Title: switch gear in zone 2 bathroom
Topic Summary:
Created On: 21 March 2015 05:56 PM
Status: Read Only
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
1 2 3 Next Last unread
Search Topic Search Topic
Topic Tools Topic Tools
View similar topics View similar topics
View topic in raw text format. Print this topic.
 21 March 2015 05:56 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



12boreblue

Posts: 123
Joined: 29 May 2006

In a bit of a dilema, have moved into new accomodation, owner has just had a new bathroom fitted by large water company...and it was not cheap!! Now ceiling is below 2.25mtrs room has been totally refurbished including new shower and bath. New downlights have been fitted and are 12v, all fine. Electrical contractor for big water company have put new pullcord in zone 2 replacing the original one. I have advised both water and electrical company that this switch gear should be outside of zone, to wit I have been told that it can go in zone 2. It is 240v switch and a standard pullcord switch, so again I stated it could not go in zone 2, contacted elecsa (contractor's organisation) who confirm I am correct. Now do I dob this company in, and ask elecsa to visit, or go through the water company to resolve it. It has been notified, but I also question whether the circuit should have been upgraded to include rcd protection as this is a refurbishment.
Advise greatly appreciated as with the new shower head and low ceiling I feel this is a risk as switch at end of bath

-------------------------
To fail to prepare is to prepare to fail!
 21 March 2015 06:23 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



OMS

Posts: 22359
Joined: 23 March 2004

Get a grip - it's a pull cord - switchgear requirements for zones exclude pull cords last time I dusted off a copy of the bumper fun book

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 21 March 2015 07:35 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



stateit

Posts: 2668
Joined: 15 April 2005

It's up to the owner to do any 'requesting' isn't it?

-------------------------
S George
http://www.sg-electrical.com
 21 March 2015 09:04 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



mapj1

Posts: 9371
Joined: 22 July 2004

701.512.3 Erection of switchgear, control gear and accessories according to external influences The following requirements do not apply to switches and controls which are incorporated in fixed current-using equipment suitable for use in that zone or to insulating pull cords of cord operated switches.
In zone 0: switchgear or accessories shall not be installed. In zone 1: only switches of SELV circuits supplied at a nominal voltage not exceeding 12 V a.c. rms or 30 V ripplefree d.c. shall be installed, the safety source being installed outside zones 0, 1 and 2.
In zone 2: switchgear, accessories incorporating switches or socket-outlets shall not be installed with the exception of: (i) switches and socket-outlets of SELV circuits, the safety source being installed outside zones 0, 1 and 2, and (ii) shaver supply units complying with BS EN 61558-2-5. Except for SELV socket-outlets complying with Section 414 and shaver supply units complying with BS EN 61558-25, socket-outlets are prohibited within a distance of 3 m horizontally from the boundary of zone 1.


Note the bold bit., Working to BS7671 - the stringy cord is allowed in zone. But the box at the top with the switch in, arguably only if its its part of equipment designed for the location
Hmmm. check carefully. Or its non compliant with BS7671 - which is perfectly OK, so long as everyone is happy with what that implies.

-------------------------
regards Mike


Edited: 21 March 2015 at 09:13 PM by mapj1
 22 March 2015 10:39 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



tomgunn

Posts: 3916
Joined: 25 May 2005

mmmmm? Jobsworth perhaps?

Tom

-------------------------
Tom.... (The TERMINATOR).

handyTRADESMAN

Castle Builders
 22 March 2015 05:45 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



geov

Posts: 386
Joined: 22 February 2004

Originally posted by: tomgunn

mmmmm? Jobsworth perhaps?



Tom


Why Tom? Leaving aside reporting, who might report etc, the basic question is " is a standard 45 amp pull switch allowed in Zone 2?", and we appear to have two different views expressed already!
 22 March 2015 05:59 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



daveparry1

Posts: 7728
Joined: 04 July 2007

I think i'd say no it isn't Geov, after all we don't put switched fcu's within zones do we. Slightly different I suppose because an fcu would be touched but the pull switch wouldn't need to be touched would it.
 22 March 2015 06:06 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



John Peckham

Posts: 8783
Joined: 23 April 2005

You can't have the pull cord switch in Zone 2 but you can have the insulated pull cord. BS 7671 Regulation 701.512.3 says you can't have "switchgear, accessories incorporating switches or socket outlets unless they are SELV or a shaver unit to BS EN 6155-2-5."

So the job does not comply with BS7671.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 22 March 2015 06:26 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



Jaymac

Posts: 35
Joined: 24 September 2009

If in doubt "err on the side of caution." In view of the fact that the ceiling is low (below 2.25 M) and the switch is close to the bath, I would suggest that it be moved even if it is a pull cord.
 22 March 2015 06:46 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



geov

Posts: 386
Joined: 22 February 2004

Originally posted by: John Peckham

You can't have the pull cord switch in Zone 2 but you can have the insulated pull cord. BS 7671 Regulation 701.512.3 says you can't have "switchgear, accessories incorporating switches or socket outlets unless they are SELV or a shaver unit to BS EN 6155-2-5."



So the job does not comply with BS7671.


Yep, that's my view too!
 22 March 2015 07:06 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



phantom9

Posts: 1757
Joined: 16 December 2002

For goodness sake, chaps, can you not see this is compliant? The switch is fixed to the ceiling. It has string from it, that has a little pull-cord toggle on the end. There is no danger from electric shock is there! OMS and Mike answered the question correctly. Insulating string from the switch. Why are there so many disagreements over such obviously safe practice. If it was in zone 1 then I would agree it shouldn't be, but zone 2 it is perfectly safe. 12boreblue is wrong to pick this up and he is likely to get problems if he pursues the situation because there is nothing wrong with it.
 22 March 2015 07:18 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



daveparry1

Posts: 7728
Joined: 04 July 2007

Hi Phantom, I agree there is absolutely no danger there at all but the question is, is it compliant? I suppose it could be said that it isn't because the 230 volt part is within the zone. I agree totally that there is no danger involved, those of us working in the "real world" realise this but some pen-pushing desk bound regs. muppet probably wouldn't see it this way!
 22 March 2015 07:50 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



John Peckham

Posts: 8783
Joined: 23 April 2005

P9

When you say there is nothing wrong with it are you saying a pull cord switch mechanism in Zone 2 of a bathroom complies with BS 7671?

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 22 March 2015 08:04 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



geov

Posts: 386
Joined: 22 February 2004

Originally posted by: daveparry1

Hi Phantom, I agree there is absolutely no danger there at all but the question is, is it compliant? I suppose it could be said that it isn't because the 230 volt part is within the zone. I agree totally that there is no danger involved, those of us working in the "real world" realise this but some pen-pushing desk bound regs. muppet probably wouldn't see it this way!


I enjoy reading and occasionally contributing to this Forum as typically, posters do not resort to childish name- calling when they do not agree with the view(s) of others. Instead they offer reasoned argument and often quote a specific regulation.
As it happens, I agree that the situation outlined by the OP has a very low risk and is unlikely to be dangerous, but it ain't compliant.
 22 March 2015 08:14 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



daveparry1

Posts: 7728
Joined: 04 July 2007

Agreed Geov.
 22 March 2015 08:49 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



mapj1

Posts: 9371
Joined: 22 July 2004

Oddly I thought I'd said it was only BS7671 compliant if the mechanism was part of a piece of equipment designed for use in the zone - which is not quite what OMS said.
I fully agree in reality it is a low risk non-compliance and all that, but regs-wise its exactly the same as if the cord switch was on a non IP rated wall light at sink height. Which just goes to show that some thought is needed when applying the regs.

I presume when referring to the in zone stuff with built in switches, they were thinking more of mirror lamps or fans with a cord switch built in, rather than a separate string switch.

Some bathrooms are just scary
A shower wiring installation to reach parts others don't. Yes it's 220V, but not in the UK. Not one I did!! .

-------------------------
regards Mike


Edited: 22 March 2015 at 09:01 PM by mapj1
 22 March 2015 09:11 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



dickllewellyn

Posts: 1410
Joined: 19 March 2010

Whilst it may not be compliant, I think I would go with it. The alternative presumable being a wall switch outside the room. It may be outside, but that doesn't mean the user will have dried their hands before using it!

-------------------------
Regards
Richard (Dick)

"Insert words of wisdom and/or witty pun here"
 22 March 2015 10:22 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



12boreblue

Posts: 123
Joined: 29 May 2006

Thank you all for the response, with regard to the jobsworth comment, you bet I am! To the it's not a risk opinion, I disagree, the switch position is 1700mm from the shower head and at the same height as the switch. If one of my kids was to take the shower head and point it up for any reason, it would soak the switch, and possibly electrically charge the water spray. I for one am not taking that risk. I and all other electricians have a duty of care and an obligation to install to the regulations, and as far as I am aware a standard 240v pullcord switchgear cannot go in Zone 2. Someone please tell me if I am wrong? And if you want to personally put your family at risk then that's ok, I am not and not prepared to let others breach the regs and put mine at risk.
Thank you all but I will call Elecsa and get them to adjudicate.

-------------------------
To fail to prepare is to prepare to fail!
 22 March 2015 10:44 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



Jaymac

Posts: 35
Joined: 24 September 2009

I tend to agree with you "12boreblue". To say there is absolutely no risk is a mistake.

Regards Jaymac.
 23 March 2015 07:52 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



aligarjon

Posts: 3854
Joined: 09 September 2005

There should not be any debate here. It does not comply, it's that simple. we can't pick and choose which regs we want to work to whether we agree with them or not.

Gary

-------------------------
Specialised Subject. The Bleedin Obvious. John Cleese
IET » Wiring and the regulations » switch gear in zone 2 bathroom

1 2 3 Next Last unread
Topic Tools Topic Tools
Statistics

New here?


See Also:



FuseTalk Standard Edition v3.2 - © 1999-2017 FuseTalk Inc. All rights reserved.

..