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Topic Title: Electrician Research Findings Report (May 2013) - Your feedback requested
Topic Summary: Key Finding: Fragmented industry is affecting electricians’ career aspirations
Created On: 23 July 2013 04:35 PM
Status: Read Only
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 12 August 2013 11:40 PM
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rocknroll

Posts: 9549
Joined: 03 October 2005

That is why England will always be a free and pleasant land unlike some of our appendages and crown territories with their insecure puppet governments who border on the cusp of authoritarianism and discrimination with threats of heavy penalties for people who are in the main just doing a simple job to survive, we believe in full equality before the law and strong civil liberties, enforcement to us especially in the build sector is coertion, encouragement and education which is far more productive than reams of regulations and threats of heavy penalties especially for which is in the main micro businesses and the self employed just trying to make a living.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------

Edited: 13 August 2013 at 07:50 AM by rocknroll
 16 August 2013 02:35 PM
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zeeper

Posts: 1504
Joined: 11 July 2008

Just a quick thanks for the advice on which direction to take. I've had a very busy week and not had time to think through the pros and cons. I had hoped to give the college a call this week to test the water with reference to the HNC OMS highlighted. So hopefully next week I should be able to give them a call to see if it would be suitable for me.
 18 August 2013 09:44 AM
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Zoro

Posts: 300
Joined: 31 July 2011

An Eng Tech would be a good idea, the problem is the industry is intent on lowering standards to the bottom.

The JIB will probably go in the next few years, the top large contractors have already walked away, with the introduction of the BENSA agreement.

Employment is nearly all through the agencies, the Unite union has delayed the progress but the introduction of Containment operatives, Cable pullers and Cable terminator classifications is already in place at lower than JIB rates. The Approved Electrician may remain but employment will be difficult.

If there is going to be Eng Tech why base it around, the JIB, Unite union, SET, Summit Skills tribe, when their day is nearly over.

As others have stated above, government is intent on giving everything to private enterprise, the expensive worthless short course and membership of Schemes that abandon standards in the name of membership numbers is the future.

Standards are going to be set on a commercial basis by companies, the government run standards organisations and even the IET's involvement will go.

I do hope that the IET does not become just a marketing title for commercial organisations, only time will tell.

Good post Zs.
 18 August 2013 10:56 AM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 10178
Joined: 18 January 2003

All these qualifications and logos we can acquire and use, here's one for starters

http://www.pat-testing-course....,1QBAG,2N5070,65QRH,1

How will anyone out of the industry know the apparent worth of Tech.Eng Vs Certified PAT tester as Joe Public doesn't know of any of the organisations involved or their apparent status.

So that leaves those in the industry trying to promote themselves above their peers, but to what ends is the question.

Andy
 28 August 2013 07:36 PM
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jcm256

Posts: 2303
Joined: 01 April 2006

See below what qualifications the HSE (latest) and stated competent person requirement for electricians/Engineers working at Quarries. It should be seamless for electricians to move from other work to quarry work (With quarry H & S training), so therefore base your qualifications for electricians on these.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/quarries/competence.htm

Edited: 29 August 2013 at 08:10 AM by jcm256
 05 July 2014 10:23 PM
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basil.wallace

Posts: 258
Joined: 01 April 2006

I think that the Level 4 Higher Professional Diploma in Building Services Engineering (4467) is no longer operated by City and Guilds.

However, Edexcel-BTEC do an BTEC Level 6 Diploma in Construction (Building Services Engineering) (QCF)

See link:

http://www.edexcel.com/migrati...L6Dip-Constr-Spec.pdf

Basil Wallace PgDip MIET EngTech

Edited: 05 July 2014 at 10:30 PM by basil.wallace
 06 July 2014 10:43 AM
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Zoomup

Posts: 3426
Joined: 20 February 2014

Originally posted by: Zs

Hello Marc, As your request is public I shall reply likewise but would be happy to participate further. you are going to have to forgive the blunt and lack of pc.



I have heard a little on the jungle grapevine about 'special IET memberships for Electricians' in the past year or so (was once encouraged not to apply for MIET but to wait until it changed to favour practising electricians because it was going to become easier...) I think this new initiative is probably what was being referred to.



We do have problems of confusion in the industry. We also have quality issues. The quality issues relate to workmanship at the bad end and to professional recognition for those who seek it at the other. Membership of a governing body has not provided the answer to either.



So, I see where you are coming from but am not sure what would be achieved by the introduction of this scheme on a number of levels;



First, it smacks of a 'Gold Club' (no offence intended JP, just nicked your tag-line, not your quality). A place for the self-appointed elite to hang out. In my opinion, we already have enough division in the industry. We (they?) have already created discrimination. Most of the division has been brought about by the constant changing of qualifications. This has been identified in your research findings. Already it is impossible to avoid ill-informed judgement based on too many variables.



Then, at the moment Eng Tech is difficult to obtain and revered. I have a notion that it should remain so. For those who have already obtained Eng Tech I wonder if the opening of what may be perceived as a back door will have as similar an effect as the five day wonders had on the electrical industry? The effect was confusion and, to be blunt, a lack of trust of fellow electricians without proof of competence. Proof of competence not brought about by the production of a plastic card with a photo I'm afraid. Some of the quick route electricians are very good at what they do but I suggest that they have the enquiring minds in the group. Your references are considerably more polite, but the 5 Day wonder and the Drive-by inspection are common terms amongst us. I wonder

if this may have a similar effect on the established level of recognition that is Eng Tech?



Let me give you an example; I do not have an NVQ3 but have a raft of other qualifications in the electrical industry. Having made a personal commitment not to repeat any training but to move forward, my application for JIB was years along the line. My JIB card bears the word 'Trainee'. I was offended when I got that but now carry my trainee card proudly. I sometimes work alongside gold card holders who don't know their.....polite pause... it is flawed.



As an humorous aside given the way that the JIB et al seem to have positioned themselves in the industry as the bench-mark of recognition. In my role as a systems designer, outside of my role as practising electrician; last week I attended (or rather didn't) a meeting in an establishment of importance. Further to an existing level of formal security clearance to carry out our work we had been asked to take a passport or two forms of photo ID for this area. I forgot my passport that day but have a clutch of electrical industry cards so I did not go back for it. They made some calls to some big nob in a tall tower, then some more to a taller tower. Neither my JIB card, not my CSCS card were deemed as suitable forms of photo ID. My Costco card on the other hand was fine, but I needed two and was summarily escorted off the premises.



That leads me on to a comment on another level about the joining of forces for this initiative. This is going to be very blunt. My hackles go up at mention of JIB and of Summit Skills. I do not know much about the others. With due deference to both of the above though (perhaps they haven't achieved much in their attempts to make themselves attractive); they fail to prove any value to many of us. There is just something about this alliance with the IET which tastes funny. I think it tastes of the usual bandwagon of power owned by those who know less than your average committed sparky about the job that is electrician. What we get out of bed for every day. Another attempt at a closed shop? My instinct warns me of yet another money making scheme with little benefit to those who pay. A regular email offering costly training courses is not a benefit. Is that on the table yet?



For JIB membership, short of being a proud trainee, an NVQ3 is required. An NVQ 3 is available on line for, you guessed it, a load of money, ability to take a photo of yourself and not much skill. It would appear that the JIB and NVQ are in bed with each other and it is easy for them to refuse the applications of those who have chosen a different route to established electrician. Thank you for your application. While you were at work attending competently to a serious electrical problem we tapped your details into a few boxes. Computer says 'No'.



Summit Skills; Wired for Success? Well I hope it is going very well for the group of ladies who have been given a special training and a job at the end of it but if ever there were an example of discrimination.



There is a great deal of corporate nepotism appearing in our industry and I think the IET would do well to rise above it.



And so on. I'm not sure that what you are proposing is going to hold water. The IET has a long established tradition of excellence before, during and hopefully after this ten or twenty year period of confusion.



Perhaps concentrate on BS7671 and ensure that those with the qualification actually do understand those pages and know how to apply them? Perhaps fewer multiple choice avenues? Perhaps more optional qualifications for those with a passion for electrics? Perhaps a structured mentoring scheme? Perhaps an honour award for those who make a genuine talented contribution to the industry, nominated and evidenced by a third party? I don't know but I'm not desperate to participate in something which may cause more division and discrimination.



Zs


Zs, you are sooooooooo attractive when you're angry.
 06 July 2014 11:38 AM
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Zoomup

Posts: 3426
Joined: 20 February 2014

Originally posted by: perspicacious

"People might say though, why would a 20 year old with a hnd be more worthy that some one with say 25 years experience in the installation industry you can't buy experience."



Keeping away from the emotive electrical competence, consider the two people above being given a structure to design.



The trade guy would copy an existing one whereas the academic guy would design from first principles.



The trade guy would be fine if the structure is one found in common use but if it is say an innovative structure ..........



Years of site experience on repetitive tasks won't enable the trade guy to do the calculations.



How many carpenters do you know that could design the size of joist needed to carry an unevenly distributed load over a span and cantilever?



Regards



BOD

How many engineers could actually physically build a wooden house?
Carpenters have been choosing correct load bearing timbers for thousands of years without formal school education or qualifications. But I agree that cooperation beats confrontation. All working together as a team is the best option.
 06 July 2014 11:48 AM
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Zoomup

Posts: 3426
Joined: 20 February 2014

Originally posted by: sparkingchip

All these qualifications and logos we can acquire and use, here's one for starters



http://www.pat-testing-course....,2N5070,65QRH,1



How will anyone out of the industry know the apparent worth of Tech.Eng Vs Certified PAT tester as Joe Public doesn't know of any of the organisations involved or their apparent status.



So that leaves those in the industry trying to promote themselves above their peers, but to what ends is the question.



Andy


Stayed at a sea side B&B recently. All the t.v.s and bedside lamps etc. has professional green PASS PAT TESTED stickers on them. My PASSED bedside lamp, fitted with a 3 Amp flex even had a nice new 13 Amp. fuse in the 13 Amp. plug. PAT testing ehh?

Bye,

Z.
 07 July 2014 12:07 PM
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OMS

Posts: 22428
Joined: 23 March 2004

Carpenters have been choosing correct load bearing timbers for thousands of years without formal school education or qualifications.


But the only evidence we have for that is the ones that survive - the rest having fallen down ?

It's the old concept of "they knew how to build good houses in the olden days - not like now" - but we only see those old buildings that survive - not the ones that failed.

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 07 July 2014 12:20 PM
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RB1981

Posts: 485
Joined: 16 September 2007

Originally posted by: Zoomup

had a nice new 13 Amp. fuse in the 13 Amp. plug. PAT testing ehh?


In fairness, I suppose, it would be difficult to say authoratively that the fuse had been in place at the time of the inspection and testing of the appliance.

-------------------------
Walsh Electrical Services
http://www.walshelectrical.ie/
RECI REC & NICEIC Approved Contractor
 07 July 2014 12:29 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 10178
Joined: 18 January 2003

A tell tale blob of clear nail varnish on the rplus top retaining screw?
 07 July 2014 12:32 PM
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perspicacious

Posts: 7854
Joined: 18 April 2006

"A tell tale blob of clear nail varnish on the rplus top retaining screw?"

Ahh, that explains why I saw some in your bag Andy.....

Regards

BAD
 07 July 2014 12:46 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 10178
Joined: 18 January 2003

I honestly don't know what to keep in my tool bag.

My last job early Saturday evening was to pump all the available water out of the bore hole at Malvern to estimate the maximum amount of water available with the water table at summer level. The answer is about 234 litres (51 gallons) with two houses drawing off it, resulting in the pump running dry and the overload protection shutting it down.

I challenge anyone to write a job description for a old fashioned jobbing electrician, they are going to miss all sorts of things off the list. Unless they put down as the first item on the list fulfilling the customers requirements.

Andy
 28 August 2014 07:53 PM
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perspicacious

Posts: 7854
Joined: 18 April 2006

"Just a quick thanks for the advice on which direction to take. I've had a very busy week and not had time to think through the pros and cons. I had hoped to give the college a call this week to test the water with reference to the HNC OMS highlighted. So hopefully next week I should be able to give them a call to see if it would be suitable for me."

Any update on this zeeper from 12 months ago?

Regards

BOD
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