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Topic Title: West London Fire
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Created On: 14 June 2017 10:32 AM
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 20 June 2017 11:50 PM
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MWalker86

Posts: 97
Joined: 05 June 2017

Originally posted by: ebee

Thing is, whether your talking about wiring systems, buildings, etc etc etc.

Nowt is built correctly in the first place.

Anybody seen a new build where all is constructed and certified correctly?

Not many I guess. A race to the bottom on price brings a lot shiites.

Cynic? Yes


Oh I'm in full agreement.

The problem is therefore in how we make sure things are built (and maintained and inspected) and the money we have available to do this is directed.

Elaborate firefighting schemes are shutting the door after the horse has bolted.
 21 June 2017 10:00 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 9974
Joined: 18 January 2003

Originally posted by: sparkingchip

Link



Link


There has been a update since I first posted this.

I tried dropping a couple of pieces of standard insulation sheets from two different manufacturers on a bonfire this afternoon, it was a good job they were only a few square inches.

Andy B
 22 June 2017 07:27 AM
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leckie

Posts: 4329
Joined: 21 November 2008

About a day after the fire, it was reported that a fridge had caught fire and that the cladding included RS5000.

I talking to a friend of mine who told be the fridge probably contained butane and faulty units were small bombs. He then said that the council should have issued each tenant a small box labelled "In case of fire please open". Inside the box would be a cyanide capsule to be taken. Now, this was a remark was not serious, but was made in disgust. He said if you are going to wrap a building in a combustible material that emits cyanide, you may as well give the residents a quicker alternative.

So today I have read that the authorities were warned of all of this, including cyanide poisoning, a long time ago.

So as the inquest and subsequent report get under way I expect they will give all this a mention and there will be recommendations made. The same as after Lakanal. So RnR doesn't think anyone should take notice of public comment after a tragedy, the problem appears that local authorities and government did not heed the advice given previously and the result us a preventable and predictable fire.

So now there will probably be recommendations for sprinkler systems, replacement cladding to many buildings, etc, which will cost far more than if the advice had been heeded in the first place. If it had the defend in place strategy would have been successful. But now nobody living in a high rise will stay put, they will panic and leg it at the first sign of a fire. They will not adhere to the fire safety strategy and therefore is is no longer a practicable as a safety system. If you had a child living in a high rise what would you think? Well that's what I think!
 22 June 2017 12:22 PM
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OMS

Posts: 22359
Joined: 23 March 2004

I suspect the first thing is to let the emotion die down a bit - the day of rage (or mild irritation as it turned out) yesterday was claiming 450 dead and a government D notice to stop publication - as an example.

From there, based on circa 80 deaths (plus a few who were never there and won't get identified) it needs a few cool heads to work through the facts (not the alternative facts) and reach conclusions

From there, recommendations can be made

I'm pretty certain that defend in place won't cease to exist overnight - it will continue as a very reliable strategy in many buildings for many years to come - I'm also pretty sure that specifiers and procurers of cladding systems will already be upping their game regardless of the PI outcome

On a brighter note, the charidee single is out - and it's rubbish. I heard the Chief Exec of RBKC has walked away - but there may be no truth in the rumour he's going to release a Billy Joel cover

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 22 June 2017 12:40 PM
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leckie

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One for the kids there OMS
 22 June 2017 02:36 PM
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rocknroll

Posts: 9541
Joined: 03 October 2005

The same as after Lakanal. So RnR doesn't think anyone should take notice of public comment after a tragedy, the problem appears that local authorities and government did not heed the advice given previously and the result us a preventable and predictable fire.


Well, you have made your mind up that it was a 'preventable' and 'predictable' fire after analysing every public comment and statements made by everyman and his dog without any hard evidence.

All I know is the investigation, or part of it has fallen on my old outfit the Task Force and I have total confidence they will do their utmost to come to a conclusion, they are ones who discovered 11 months before your committee of fools why the number of fires at the consumer/cutout area were increasing, still ongoing policy matters.

I am of the opinion that there is more information yet to be revealed once the police investigation has concluded, they are not interested in breaches of the Building Regulation or who got a hand out they are more interested in whether and what kind of criminal act was committed that led to this tragedy.

Its early days yet so you will have to be patient.

Regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 22 June 2017 03:20 PM
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rocknroll

Posts: 9541
Joined: 03 October 2005

I fully understand that people want answers now so they have someone to blame and are concerned with any veil of silence, this is necessary considering the large loss of life, its a bit like a aircraft investigation where one has to try and put the pieces back together, examine and re-examine everything such as bodies and their airways, stomachs etc, they play a vital role analysing what chemicals caused their demise besides what was the root cause, was it accidental or was it deliberate, it cant be any other way.

In the meantime the forums, the pundits, the soothsayers and the conspiracy theorists will flourish trying to gain recognition and probably making loads a money, its getting sadder by the day.

In my experience generally the final conclusions that follow a tragedy of this nature are some what of an anti-climax, the main concentration now is what or who caused the fire in the first place, whether tenant overcrowding and tenant improvements, a fridge or even the cladding added to a further loss of life that is incidental and lessons to be learned for the future which may result in further legislation to try and ease the problem, but as I have said it will probably happen again because people do not learn.

Regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------

Edited: 22 June 2017 at 04:25 PM by rocknroll
 26 June 2017 08:04 AM
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Zoomup

Posts: 3286
Joined: 20 February 2014

Apparently the fire risk was known about for some time prior to the latest disaster. http://www.frmjournal.com/news...492A8BE7FB#.WUCr7Qm-N

Z.
 26 June 2017 08:28 AM
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Zoomup

Posts: 3286
Joined: 20 February 2014

A 100 per cent failure rate of test samples has been found of the external cladding submitted for fire test analysis according to this report. http://news.sky.com/story/gren...safety-tests-10927143

Z.
 26 June 2017 01:06 PM
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ectophile

Posts: 746
Joined: 17 September 2001

But I rather suspect that the only samples that are being sent for testing are the ones that somebody thinks are likely to fail. It doesn't mean that 100% of the cladding on all buildings is unsafe.

-------------------------
S P Barker BSc PhD IEng MIET
 26 June 2017 04:00 PM
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MWalker86

Posts: 97
Joined: 05 June 2017

Originally posted by: Zoomup

Apparently the fire risk was known about for some time prior to the latest disaster. ">http://www.frmjournal....ews.....#.WUCr7Qm-N



Z.

note the date on this blog
 27 June 2017 09:43 AM
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whjohnson

Posts: 934
Joined: 24 January 2009

Well, it seems that an inspection was carried out at the Chalcots estate in North London last week and hundreds of fire doors were found to be missing.........

Why might that be?

http://www.express.co.uk/news/...blocks-Chalcots-Estate

-------------------------
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
 27 June 2017 09:48 AM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 1360
Joined: 19 January 2016

How do 1000 fire doors go 'missing'

That's a pretty big number of missing doors
 27 June 2017 10:14 AM
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pww235

Posts: 181
Joined: 03 April 2014

Given the quantities, I'd reckon that by 'missing' they actually mean 'weren't installed in the first place' - i.e. non fire rated doors were possibly installed instead.

Edited: 27 June 2017 at 10:57 AM by pww235
 27 June 2017 10:22 AM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 1360
Joined: 19 January 2016

I literally had visions of blocks of flats with no internal doors within the flats
IET » Wiring and the regulations » West London Fire

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