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Topic Title: Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?
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Created On: 11 January 2015 05:08 PM
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 Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?   - jonesmj - 11 January 2015 05:08 PM  
 Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?   - sparkingchip - 11 January 2015 07:04 PM  
 Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?   - aligarjon - 11 January 2015 07:33 PM  
 Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?   - dickllewellyn - 11 January 2015 08:52 PM  
 Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?   - Manxie - 11 January 2015 09:06 PM  
 Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?   - mapj1 - 11 January 2015 09:15 PM  
 Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?   - sparkingchip - 11 January 2015 09:35 PM  
 Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?   - mapj1 - 11 January 2015 09:45 PM  
 Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?   - Manxie - 11 January 2015 09:18 PM  
 Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?   - sparkingchip - 11 January 2015 09:23 PM  
 Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?   - Manxie - 11 January 2015 09:26 PM  
 Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?   - mapj1 - 11 January 2015 09:32 PM  
 Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?   - Manxie - 11 January 2015 09:46 PM  
 Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?   - mapj1 - 11 January 2015 09:56 PM  
 Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?   - sparkingchip - 11 January 2015 10:18 PM  
 Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?   - Manxie - 11 January 2015 10:37 PM  
 Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?   - sparkingchip - 11 January 2015 10:51 PM  
 Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?   - Phillron - 11 January 2015 11:03 PM  
 Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?   - sparkingchip - 11 January 2015 11:23 PM  
 Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?   - davezawadi - 12 January 2015 12:10 AM  
 Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?   - mapj1 - 11 January 2015 11:14 PM  
 Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?   - Manxie - 12 January 2015 12:25 AM  
 Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?   - sparkingchip - 12 January 2015 07:52 AM  
 Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?   - mapj1 - 12 January 2015 08:57 AM  
 Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?   - sparkingchip - 12 January 2015 05:58 PM  
 Disabled bath (Arjo Parker) in wetroom - power supply ?   - cookers - 12 January 2015 08:56 PM  
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 11 January 2015 05:08 PM
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jonesmj

Posts: 1
Joined: 11 January 2015

Seen a number of past posts re power sockets in wetrooms, bathrooms etc.

Encountered this problem last week - disabled bath that is moveable limited by the length of hot and cold water supply pipes (has an electrical driven hydraulic pump that raises and tilts bath) delivered to client with a 1.5 metre lead with 13amp plug on the end!! (Bath previously used in a care home and I am reliably informed that it is the same length of cable that they used so must have been plugged into a wall socket in the area where the bath was previously being used). Currently being used by carers who trail an extension lead in to the wetroom!!!!

1.5 m lead gives no chance of complying any of the latest regs in the current location.

Can we open the debate again about power outlets in wetroom/bathrooms, is there a within regs fix for a power supply for this type of installation?

Safety further compounded by a moveable shower head within 3.0m to the right of the bath and a hand held sprayhead on a flexible hose(douche) for the toilet again within 3.0 M of the bath on the lefthand side.

With a longer flex a socket could be sited in a false compartment that is isolated from the wetroom.

Any thoughts?
 11 January 2015 07:04 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 10178
Joined: 18 January 2003

I would be looking to hard wire it with IP rated gear with the plug cut off,

Andy
 11 January 2015 07:33 PM
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aligarjon

Posts: 3874
Joined: 09 September 2005

flex outlet with switch outside the door. clearly it should not be plugged in.

Gary

-------------------------
Specialised Subject. The Bleedin Obvious. John Cleese
 11 January 2015 08:52 PM
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dickllewellyn

Posts: 1410
Joined: 19 March 2010

if you dont want to cut the plug off, Contactum make an external socket outlet of the type you can shut the lid over a plug, with the ability to lock shut with a padlock. That could be switched by a double pole pull cord as a solution?

-------------------------
Regards
Richard (Dick)

"Insert words of wisdom and/or witty pun here"
 11 January 2015 09:06 PM
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Manxie

Posts: 246
Joined: 08 January 2015

Section 701 of the Regulations only apply to an area containing a fixed bath.

Regards
Charlie

Edited: 11 January 2015 at 09:12 PM by Manxie
 11 January 2015 09:15 PM
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mapj1

Posts: 9679
Joined: 22 July 2004

Put the plug and socket in a dry box under the bath, or simply re-fit a longer lead. May have been non-complaint before, may have been fed off an isolating transformer, or a lockable floor box - but generally a 13A Plug in splashing distance is just not a good idea.
Note the zones stop early of there is a partition or similar, but stuffing a wire through a hole in the wall and putting the plug back on is not really sensible.
Change the connector or the lead .If need be there are some nice in-line IP rated switches.


Edit, the maker are American - hence all the references to GFCI and ground bonds in the installation instructions.
I'd ignore all that, and put an IP rated switch on the wall and wire to that.
Also consider a 10mA RCD.
an example

-------------------------
regards Mike


Edited: 11 January 2015 at 09:30 PM by mapj1
 11 January 2015 09:35 PM
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sparkingchip

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 11 January 2015 09:45 PM
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mapj1

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Install instructions - may not be the right model

Recommends fixed wiring anyway both in US and EU, and 10mA RCD.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 11 January 2015 09:18 PM
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Manxie

Posts: 246
Joined: 08 January 2015

An industrial plug and socket would be the best option..
The zones and section 701 don't apply to this scenario
 11 January 2015 09:23 PM
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sparkingchip

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Really?
 11 January 2015 09:26 PM
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Manxie

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Really?? Is that question for me ?
 11 January 2015 09:32 PM
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mapj1

Posts: 9679
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well, OK 701 is intended for a room with a fixed bath or shower, but surely the risk of splashing is more, not less, sor egardless of regmanship, I'd say treat it very much as if it was.- using a bit of gumption, rather than letter of the rules.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 11 January 2015 09:46 PM
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Manxie

Posts: 246
Joined: 08 January 2015

sorry I should have said that I've recently done a spec for a similar job..
Industrial socket fixed to the wall >300mm
Protected by a 30ma Rcd and 10a MCB..
Isolating tx was considered but costs were prohibitive..(6 bathrooms)

Regards
Charlie
 11 January 2015 09:56 PM
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mapj1

Posts: 9679
Joined: 22 July 2004

Actually, while I agree 30mA is the regs figure, I'd be wondering about lower (I know that before harmonisation got them Germany used to sometimes have 10mA RCDs in bathroom sockets.)
If your ever mad enough to try this

http://www.bigclive.com/tickle.htm
And I can't recommend it !!
You will appreciate that 10mA is more than enough discomfort to be going on with, and its not as if the load is a 30A ring final full of random stuff, just one well controlled load.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 11 January 2015 10:18 PM
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sparkingchip

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Read the OP again and you will see the bath is in a existing wet room with shower. So that makes it a 701location regardless of the construction of the bath.

That aside it's a bath.

Andy
 11 January 2015 10:37 PM
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Manxie

Posts: 246
Joined: 08 January 2015

Next time you are in a hospital, care home, medical type place,etc have a nose round in their bathrooms.
Electrical equipment and power outlets galore ??
Trained/competent operatives in bathrooms

Regards
Charlie
 11 January 2015 10:51 PM
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sparkingchip

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"Trained/competent operatives in bathrooms "

Which electrical reg covers that exemption?

Andy
 11 January 2015 11:03 PM
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Phillron

Posts: 1411
Joined: 18 January 2007

Originally posted by: Manxie


Electrical equipment and power outlets galore ??

Trained/competent operatives in bathrooms



Regards

Charlie



Are they for checking the Tesco plastic bags are tied tightly around the plugged in sockets of the extension leads lol
 11 January 2015 11:23 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 10178
Joined: 18 January 2003

Originally posted by: Phillron

Originally posted by: Manxie





Electrical equipment and power outlets galore ??



Trained/competent operatives in bathrooms







Regards



Charlie






Are they for checking the Tesco plastic bags are tied tightly around the plugged in sockets of the extension leads lol



I asked one care home owner why there was twin and earth cable hanging loose by the side of a distribution board with MCB tied up in a carrier bags, it does happen in real life!

Anyway is the suggestion that it should be considered a 710 location rather than a 701 then everything will be OK?


Andy
 12 January 2015 12:10 AM
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davezawadi

Posts: 3954
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My take would be a bit different. You are loking at an item with bonded metalwork (via the cable and plug) so what is the advantage of a 10mA RCD? In fact it changes nothing and 10mA are a problem with motors of any kind. So the question is how to have a plug and socket in a wet environment and you already know that. An IP67 BS4343 is the answer, with a 30 mA RCD somewhere should you loose the earth conductor and have an earth fault (very unlikely). The equipment then may be safely cleaned with a pressure washer whilst operating, which is pretty unlikely and the hydraulic pump is unlikely to be IP67 anyway. The section 700 stuff is fine, but assumes BS1363 plugs and sockets as is domestic in general. You are following the manufacturers instructions. Job done safely. Note: Do not fit a socket with RCD included in the box in the bathroom, the idea is to have nothing which can be touched in there, they do look like a good idea, but not here!

-------------------------
David
BSc CEng MIET
david@ZawadiSoundAndLighting.co.uk
 11 January 2015 11:14 PM
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mapj1

Posts: 9679
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I sort of agree. You can have exceptions, but then in a modern hospital there should be isolation transformers, insulation monitoring, low value RCDs and all sorts of other stuff behind the 'ordinary' sockets in key places
. I don't think a medical or nursing qualification guarantees any particular level of electrical competence.

Is this true in this particular case - sounds more like its been put in a customized domestic setting now..

-------------------------
regards Mike
 12 January 2015 12:25 AM
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Manxie

Posts: 246
Joined: 08 January 2015

You are right isolating tx's, etc are in use..
But I haven't seen many electricians bathing geriatrics in specialist bathrooms.
The equipment is being used by competent personnel !
In reply to previous sarcastic comments with respect to trained personnel
Not all rooms containing a bath come under 701. i.e. Emergency rooms, etc.
The regs are not the be all and end all..what happens when something is outside the scope of the regs??
Freeze with sheer panic because your bible is of no use??
Or maybe refer to other documents that are relevant.
A very important factor when designing an installation is the use of the building and occupants/ operatives.
If the respective bathrooms in question were in use by vulnerable persons with no supervision then the design would differ greatly to that where trained operatives were using the equipment...
 12 January 2015 07:52 AM
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sparkingchip

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"Industrial socket fixed to the wall >300mm"

Precisely which regulation gives the distance of 300mm?

Andy
 12 January 2015 08:57 AM
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mapj1

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Perhaps I came over wrongly. I am not convinced, in this case, that the set up is a hospital.
It sounds more like a hospital/ care home type bath is being fitted into a normal-ish house for care at home.
Perhaps this could be clarified, as its quite germane, as it influences all sorts of other things - mainly the likely quality of the wiring and PAT status of things it may be shared with. There is the world of difference between a building where every minor work has been tested, and there is an official maintenance path, and one where the sockets the late uncle harry put in in 1974 have always been a bit tingly.
Maybe its the places I get involved, and I don't do that much actual wiring these days, but a CPC may not be all it seems in a domestic setting, and far from all have equi-potential bonding I'd like to rely on.

Not sure how much troubles you have with 10mA RCDs on single socket loads - generally we use them with mobile gensets etc, and it obliges folk to keep the leads short and not use multiway splitters, but I;'m not worried about that, actually its possibly good.
Equally, we've never fitted an electric bath in a truck, or for that matter at a static site to my knowledge.
If it trips on switch on, I'd be looking for inrush limiting and sensible filter topologies.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 12 January 2015 05:58 PM
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sparkingchip

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I don't think it is a hospital either, though a hydrotherapy room is an example of a medical location in BS7671.

Indeed I think it is a straight forward bathroom with no special exemptions being allowed by BS7671 depending on who is using it.

Another issue to consider of course is having a trailing lead on the floor that may be a trip hazard. As it is a wet room no one is going to appreciate holes being drilled in the floor, can the power outlet be positioned above it on the ceiling?

Andy
 12 January 2015 08:56 PM
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cookers

Posts: 213
Joined: 10 February 2012

From memory there is Hospital Technical Memorandum that covers this, (where you have to fit socket outlets in an area that is going to get wet) but I cannot locate the standard.

My memory is fully waterproof sockets backed up by 5mA RCD.
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