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Topic Title: Issuing IECR`s and Competent persons scheme
Topic Summary:
Created On: 07 January 2015 09:57 PM
Status: Read Only
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 Issuing IECR`s and Competent persons scheme   - bobzzz - 07 January 2015 09:57 PM  
 Issuing IECR`s and Competent persons scheme   - sparkiemike - 07 January 2015 10:39 PM  
 Issuing IECR`s and Competent persons scheme   - davezawadi - 09 January 2015 07:35 AM  
 Issuing IECR`s and Competent persons scheme   - mikejumper - 10 January 2015 12:26 PM  
 Issuing IECR`s and Competent persons scheme   - Paradigm - 10 January 2015 02:32 PM  
 Issuing IECR`s and Competent persons scheme   - leckie - 10 January 2015 03:24 PM  
 Issuing IECR`s and Competent persons scheme   - bobzzz - 10 January 2015 10:33 AM  
 Issuing IECR`s and Competent persons scheme   - Pacific - 10 January 2015 11:44 AM  
 Issuing IECR`s and Competent persons scheme   - bajb - 10 January 2015 05:07 PM  
 Issuing IECR`s and Competent persons scheme   - davezawadi - 10 January 2015 05:50 PM  
 Issuing IECR`s and Competent persons scheme   - spinlondon - 10 January 2015 11:35 PM  
 Issuing IECR`s and Competent persons scheme   - mantutu - 10 January 2015 11:56 PM  
 Issuing IECR`s and Competent persons scheme   - normcall - 11 January 2015 06:55 AM  
 Issuing IECR`s and Competent persons scheme   - Paradigm - 11 January 2015 08:38 AM  
 Issuing IECR`s and Competent persons scheme   - leckie - 11 January 2015 08:54 AM  
 Issuing IECR`s and Competent persons scheme   - Phillron - 11 January 2015 10:55 AM  
 Issuing IECR`s and Competent persons scheme   - Paradigm - 11 January 2015 08:52 AM  
 Issuing IECR`s and Competent persons scheme   - spinlondon - 11 January 2015 01:53 PM  
 Issuing IECR`s and Competent persons scheme   - leckie - 11 January 2015 02:04 PM  
 Issuing IECR`s and Competent persons scheme   - daveparry1 - 11 January 2015 01:58 PM  
 Issuing IECR`s and Competent persons scheme   - spinlondon - 11 January 2015 02:05 PM  
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 07 January 2015 09:57 PM
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bobzzz

Posts: 78
Joined: 13 May 2014

Do you need to be registered with one of the schemes if you want to only do condition reports? This could be for domestic, commercial or industrial installations.

Thank you in advance.

-------------------------
Want to know how to become an electrician? Follow the link electriciancentre.co.uk/electrician-courses/
 07 January 2015 10:39 PM
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sparkiemike

Posts: 1630
Joined: 24 January 2008

No you don't, but it may be a condition imposed by your client or their insurance provider.
 09 January 2015 07:35 AM
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davezawadi

Posts: 3846
Joined: 26 June 2002

You must take care that you are adequately competent to undertake EICRs. You must have C&G 2395 (2391) and sufficient experience and capability to produce reports which are capable of scrutiny by other competent persons. You will need professional indemnity insurance, because you are accepting a significant statutory responsibility as duty holder. This job is the most difficult available for an electrician, but can be rewarding even financially, but needs a rare level of knowledge, skill and experience. Most inspectors would join a scheme because it might give security (not real but imagined!) to potential customers, a view which is nurtured by the scheme providers. Any inspector would have a much better knowledge than any of the scheme assessors you are likely to meet, and this can lead to a certain degree of friction with the schemes!

-------------------------
David
BSc CEng MIET
david@ZawadiSoundAndLighting.co.uk
 10 January 2015 12:26 PM
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mikejumper

Posts: 2407
Joined: 14 December 2006

Originally posted by: davezawadi
....You must have C&G 2395 (2391)..............

It may be beneficial, but it's not a must.
 10 January 2015 02:32 PM
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Paradigm

Posts: 853
Joined: 10 September 2010

Originally posted by: davezawadi

....You must have C&G 2395 (2391)..............


As a qualified inspector, I am sure you can reference a source for that David?

As Mike said, its certainly beneficial but am sure its not mandatory

Nick

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"be careful of what you write"
 10 January 2015 03:24 PM
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leckie

Posts: 4320
Joined: 21 November 2008

Especially as David thinks his students when he taught the 2391 were plebs.

Actually I think I read on here somewhere that NAPIT insist on an up to date 2391 equivalent if you are carrying out EICR's. I don't think NICEIC do but they would be assessing your competence I would imagine. In my experience the insurers nearly always insist on scheme membership. Oddly they seem to not realise that a NICEIC domestic installer is not NICEIC approved for carrying out commercial EICR's. They just see the NICEIC logo and think it's the same thing as an Approved Contractor.

As Nick says, I dont think there is any regs requirement. AM3 says the persons carrying out the EICR need to be an electrically skilled persons, competent to carry out the work.
 10 January 2015 10:33 AM
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bobzzz

Posts: 78
Joined: 13 May 2014

Thank you Dave. I think you and sparkie are right in that the client will most probably like me to have that as a requirement. I have been doing EICR`s for some time on quite complex installations and have 2391 and 2395, but am always eager to learn more.

Appreciate the input , thank you

-------------------------
Want to know how to become an electrician? Follow the link electriciancentre.co.uk/electrician-courses/
 10 January 2015 11:44 AM
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Pacific

Posts: 738
Joined: 29 January 2005

EICRs on schools must be one of the better areas to work in, generally during holidays so the buildings are empty, and the only scrutiny is by the HT or the janitor, but they do insist on NIC membership ( or they do in my county), I have done remedials after EICRs and most have been works of fiction
 10 January 2015 05:07 PM
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bajb

Posts: 593
Joined: 20 November 2002

Napit do not insist on an 'up to date' 2391 routinely. The exception is that on the day you join the scheme to become an approved inspector to do third party certification work (eg inspecting diyer's work) then the 2391 had to have been achieved within the last 5 years. Once part of the scheme you are fine. I recall from a previous discussion here I believe that the 5 year requirement came from the LABC side.
 10 January 2015 05:50 PM
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davezawadi

Posts: 3846
Joined: 26 June 2002

C&G 2391 /2395 are the relevant qualifications for an inspector. If you don't have either then by definition you are an unqualified amateur. Whilst a quick read of GN3 might be considered enough by some, it is unlikely that anyone else in or out of the industry would agree.

-------------------------
David
BSc CEng MIET
david@ZawadiSoundAndLighting.co.uk
 10 January 2015 11:35 PM
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spinlondon

Posts: 5494
Joined: 10 December 2004

There is no statutory requirement to have an qualifications to conduct electrical work or to inspect electrical installations.
Why anyone would believe otherwise is a mystery.
It is the case that many institutions that require reports will also require that the inspector is a member of a scheme, though there is no statutory requirement for such.
My understanding, is that the NICEIC have no requirements for members to hold 2391 or the modern equivalent, though I was led to believe that the ESC had such a requirement for anyone operating under their QS scheme.
Of course, now that the ECA is part of the NICEIC, that requirement is probably no longer extant.
 10 January 2015 11:56 PM
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mantutu

Posts: 123
Joined: 16 June 2013

Dave! I am upset, you are one of my most admired members here and yet you come out with some (untruths).
There are many ways to prove competence the easiest way is by qualification as you direct. That does not mean that those who do not have that qualification are not competent.
Knowledge is an asset best reserved for those willing to learn.
 11 January 2015 06:55 AM
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normcall

Posts: 8514
Joined: 15 January 2005

It depends actually.
In the days before my incompetence finally caught up with me (leaving the NICEIC), my favourite was carrying out inspections of petrol forecourt and private pumps. In those days the annual fire certificate required various qualifications such as IEE membership etc.
I still wonder how so many annual inspections and certificates were issued and then in the year before I carried one out, the flame-proof boxes had the flame-proof plugs removed or had standard plugs fitted in the cast boxes.
Such is the effect of qualifications and membership of various 'approved' bodies.

-------------------------
Norman
 11 January 2015 08:38 AM
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Paradigm

Posts: 853
Joined: 10 September 2010

Dave

So apart from your own personal opinion, you don't have a reference for your claim then?

Nick

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"be careful of what you write"
 11 January 2015 08:54 AM
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leckie

Posts: 4320
Joined: 21 November 2008

Well this is the definition for an electrically skilled person that was in the draft AM3, I haven't yet got my new AM3 BYB to confirm this is what was put in. So this is what I think will be required in the not too distant future.

Skilled person (electrically). A person with technical knowledge or sufficient relevant education and experience
to enable him/ or her to perceive risks and to avoid dangers hazards which electricity may can create.


How we measure this is open to debate.
 11 January 2015 10:55 AM
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Phillron

Posts: 1411
Joined: 18 January 2007

C&G 2391 /2395 are the relevant qualifications for an inspector. If you don't have either then by definition you are an unqualified amateur.

Here is another definition of that description "self righteous tosh"


Before 2006 having had almost 40 years in the game,I would have been considered an amateur by that definition

There are people I know who have recently gained todays 2391 equivalent that lack basic experience
There are people I know with time spent in the trade who hold no such qualification

Who would I have more faith in to test and inspect and declare a system safe for continued use?

Knowledge of the type of installation and experience is the requirement

The experience is either there or not there
The knowledge can be demonstrated in other ways and by other relevant qualifications
 11 January 2015 08:52 AM
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Paradigm

Posts: 853
Joined: 10 September 2010

Mantutu

Don't get upset, it's harsh but the day quite often comes when you realise that someone you had admired and put on a pedestal is as human as the rest of us.

You'll be alright, trust me!

Nick

-------------------------
"be careful of what you write"
 11 January 2015 01:53 PM
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spinlondon

Posts: 5494
Joined: 10 December 2004

I do wonder why so many who have passed the 2391 had to go onto forums asking what code should be applied to such and such?
 11 January 2015 02:04 PM
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leckie

Posts: 4320
Joined: 21 November 2008

Hmm, well there are many on this forum that have passed 2391, including you no doubt Spin, but we all have differing views and interpretations don't we? I mean when you think for example a C2 and Dave Zawadi says C1, whose right? Is it you, who has passed 2391, or Dave who has taught it? Possibly neither. We can't alway agree on how to tick a few boxes, remember the double insulated debate?
 11 January 2015 01:58 PM
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daveparry1

Posts: 7728
Joined: 04 July 2007

When I done my 2391 about 10 years ago I don't remember much being said about fault codes Spin, apart from which it all changed when inspections became EICR's instead of PIR's a while ago.
 11 January 2015 02:05 PM
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spinlondon

Posts: 5494
Joined: 10 December 2004

To my mind the 2391 should have been for practicing testers and inspectors to prove their competence.
Unfortunately it ended up being used as a passport to conduct testing and inspections.
I guess applying codes appropriately was more to do with experience and common sense, not what qualification was obtained?
Never taken the 2391, let alone passed it.
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