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Topic Title: £1,400 rewire
Topic Summary:
Created On: 16 January 2013 09:10 PM
Status: Read Only
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 £1,400 rewire   - DOUGIE1000 - 16 January 2013 09:10 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - GJH - 16 January 2013 09:22 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - Martynduerden - 16 January 2013 09:36 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - antric2 - 16 January 2013 09:49 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - Martynduerden - 16 January 2013 10:04 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - DOUGIE1000 - 16 January 2013 10:12 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - Martynduerden - 16 January 2013 10:18 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - antric2 - 16 January 2013 10:22 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - Martynduerden - 16 January 2013 10:35 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - antric2 - 16 January 2013 11:09 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - peteTLM - 18 January 2013 11:34 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - Martynduerden - 19 January 2013 02:53 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - antric2 - 16 January 2013 10:16 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - DOUGIE1000 - 16 January 2013 10:08 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - GJH - 16 January 2013 10:13 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - antric2 - 16 January 2013 10:18 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - DOUGIE1000 - 16 January 2013 10:19 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - Dave69 - 16 January 2013 10:25 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - GJH - 16 January 2013 10:26 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - Fm - 17 January 2013 06:51 AM  
 £1,400 rewire   - SherlockOhms - 17 January 2013 07:46 AM  
 £1,400 rewire   - alanblaby - 17 January 2013 08:32 AM  
 £1,400 rewire   - SherlockOhms - 17 January 2013 08:51 AM  
 £1,400 rewire   - antric2 - 20 January 2013 04:55 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - RB1981 - 08 February 2015 08:39 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - davezawadi - 09 February 2015 07:20 AM  
 £1,400 rewire   - davezawadi - 09 February 2015 08:16 AM  
 £1,400 rewire   - GeoffBlackwell - 09 February 2015 08:42 AM  
 £1,400 rewire   - GJH - 18 January 2013 07:48 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - normcall - 19 January 2013 11:34 AM  
 £1,400 rewire   - peteTLM - 19 January 2013 01:31 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - Rulland - 20 January 2013 08:38 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - colinhaggett - 20 January 2013 09:10 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - Rulland - 20 January 2013 09:13 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - tickery2k1 - 08 February 2015 07:24 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - antric2 - 08 February 2015 07:44 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - dickllewellyn - 09 February 2015 07:58 AM  
 £1,400 rewire   - FizzleBang - 09 February 2015 09:31 AM  
 £1,400 rewire   - davezawadi - 09 February 2015 11:55 AM  
 £1,400 rewire   - FizzleBang - 09 February 2015 02:20 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - normcall - 09 February 2015 03:38 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - ebee - 09 February 2015 06:03 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - leckie - 09 February 2015 09:44 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - FizzleBang - 09 February 2015 11:14 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - michaelward - 17 October 2015 01:13 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - perspicacious - 17 October 2015 09:43 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - peteTLM - 18 October 2015 09:45 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - sparkingchip - 19 October 2015 12:45 AM  
 £1,400 rewire   - impvan - 17 October 2015 04:16 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - hifly - 17 October 2015 07:50 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - antric2 - 17 October 2015 09:03 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - aligarjon - 25 October 2015 11:46 AM  
 £1,400 rewire   - Phillron - 17 October 2015 09:13 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - leckie - 17 October 2015 09:46 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - sparkingchip - 18 October 2015 12:59 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - sparkingchip - 17 October 2015 11:03 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - leckie - 18 October 2015 07:05 AM  
 £1,400 rewire   - Fm - 18 October 2015 09:19 AM  
 £1,400 rewire   - michaelward - 18 October 2015 07:59 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - leckie - 18 October 2015 08:35 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - michaelward - 19 October 2015 02:31 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - mapj1 - 19 October 2015 04:53 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - perspicacious - 19 October 2015 05:41 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - sparkingchip - 18 October 2015 09:08 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - ebee - 18 October 2015 09:23 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - geoffsd - 18 October 2015 09:57 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - sparkingchip - 20 October 2015 09:38 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - WiredScience - 19 October 2015 04:17 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - normcall - 19 October 2015 04:25 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - AJJewsbury - 19 October 2015 05:51 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - John Peckham - 19 October 2015 06:55 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - sparkingchip - 19 October 2015 09:40 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - sparkingchip - 19 October 2015 09:46 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - michaelward - 20 October 2015 04:45 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - perspicacious - 20 October 2015 05:21 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - leckie - 20 October 2015 05:41 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - mapj1 - 20 October 2015 05:47 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - perspicacious - 20 October 2015 06:25 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - perspicacious - 20 October 2015 06:45 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - peteTLM - 20 October 2015 09:18 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - sparkingchip - 22 October 2015 01:14 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - sparkingchip - 24 October 2015 09:52 AM  
 £1,400 rewire   - michaelward - 02 November 2015 12:18 AM  
 £1,400 rewire   - Avalon - 02 November 2015 01:15 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - normcall - 20 October 2015 07:03 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - michaelward - 20 October 2015 08:41 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - AJJewsbury - 20 October 2015 09:12 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - michaelward - 20 October 2015 10:12 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - sparkingchip - 20 October 2015 10:25 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - michaelward - 21 October 2015 11:31 AM  
 £1,400 rewire   - mapj1 - 20 October 2015 10:39 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - normcall - 21 October 2015 06:45 AM  
 £1,400 rewire   - arg - 21 October 2015 04:51 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - normcall - 21 October 2015 07:12 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - arg - 21 October 2015 10:33 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - normcall - 22 October 2015 06:43 AM  
 £1,400 rewire   - sparkingchip - 22 October 2015 01:40 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - whjohnson - 22 October 2015 02:23 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - michaelward - 23 October 2015 05:05 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - sparkingchip - 24 October 2015 09:36 AM  
 £1,400 rewire   - sparkingchip - 02 November 2015 03:55 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - michaelward - 22 October 2015 12:38 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - AJJewsbury - 22 October 2015 01:24 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - AJJewsbury - 22 October 2015 03:10 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - mapj1 - 22 October 2015 10:09 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - geoffsd - 22 October 2015 11:47 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - mapj1 - 25 October 2015 01:25 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - sparkingchip - 25 October 2015 01:42 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - mapj1 - 25 October 2015 02:09 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - AJJewsbury - 02 November 2015 10:35 AM  
 £1,400 rewire   - michaelward - 02 November 2015 08:40 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - perspicacious - 02 November 2015 09:07 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - alancapon - 02 November 2015 09:40 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - sparkingchip - 02 November 2015 10:07 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - peteTLM - 03 November 2015 12:35 AM  
 £1,400 rewire   - Avalon - 03 November 2015 03:00 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - geoffsd - 03 November 2015 03:52 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - mapj1 - 02 November 2015 10:16 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - sparkingchip - 02 November 2015 10:59 PM  
 £1,400 rewire   - mapj1 - 03 November 2015 09:12 AM  
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 16 January 2013 09:10 PM
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DOUGIE1000

Posts: 4243
Joined: 13 August 2005

Seen this flyer floating about locally.

Up to a 2 bedroom house inc 40amp shower circuit and 32amp cooker fully rewired. -£1,400

-------------------------
Dougie
Power Plus Electrical.co.uk

My mission is to live as long as possible......so far so good!
 16 January 2013 09:22 PM
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GJH

Posts: 512
Joined: 24 January 2008

Yeeeee Haaaaaaa!!!
 16 January 2013 09:36 PM
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Martynduerden

Posts: 3219
Joined: 13 July 2008

Go for it get em in it will end up being free because no one in their right mind will pay for a bodge job.

1,400.00 gets you nothing in this area I've just today completed a rewire which was tens of multiples of that figure and nothing super special.

I did have a known chap working for me on the job who I'm sure would have done it or a fraction of my quote - I spent days correcting his errors - he's fully qualified every single bit of paper he even thinks he's the bees knees total and utter sh**e.

Cheap is expensive!

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best
 16 January 2013 09:49 PM
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antric2

Posts: 1266
Joined: 20 October 2006

Evening all,
Well Dougie, you have hit on my pet project fact finding mission of the moment.
Last year I did 3 full rewires out of 16 quotes when normally I do about 8 or 9 from an average of about 12\13 quotes for rewires.My prices have not changed and i even threw in a bathroom light fitting and security light.
I called some of the failed quotes and even though I had been recommended it all came down to cost....not a smal gap but a£2400 3 bed semi with shower being lost to a £1500 rival quote.

My son told me of his mate, about 24 years old who had gone on his own and was unindated with rewires so maybe that was the answer.Not all lost work to him but a couple of other guys who were equally as cheap.

I bumped into my sons mate and he told me he would do 3 beds for £1200 because he was young and he had to go cheap to get the work.Fair enough, he does look young so understand his point.He gets someone to sign his jobs off.He also told me he worked for a local council housebashing and so he can and has done rewires in 2 days....ye right!!.

So, while contemplating my position I thought I might try him out on a rewire as he has now gone quiet.He is prepared to work for £70 a 12 hour day.I will,genuinely pay a higher rate if he is worth it.
My point...if you cant beat them...use them and bring them into the fold as it may work out right for everyone.
Regards
Antric
 16 January 2013 10:04 PM
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Martynduerden

Posts: 3219
Joined: 13 July 2008

Originally posted by: antric2

So, while contemplating my position I thought I might try him out on a rewire as he has now gone quiet.He is prepared to work for £70 a 12 hour day.I will,genuinely pay a higher rate if he is worth it.


£70😱 I've been paying more than that for labourers !

-------------------------
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Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best
 16 January 2013 10:12 PM
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DOUGIE1000

Posts: 4243
Joined: 13 August 2005

Originally posted by: Martynduerden

Originally posted by: antric2



So, while contemplating my position I thought I might try him out on a rewire as he has now gone quiet.He is prepared to work for £70 a 12 hour day.I will,genuinely pay a higher rate if he is worth it.






£70😱 I've been paying more than that for labourers !


we have a labourer in another business i own, the labourer(s) are on minimum wage at time of this post is £6.20ph, £50 a day.

£70 for 12 hours day from a spark providing his own van, tools, etc,

-------------------------
Dougie
Power Plus Electrical.co.uk

My mission is to live as long as possible......so far so good!
 16 January 2013 10:18 PM
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Martynduerden

Posts: 3219
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I'm guessing its simply geographical variation, decent sparks round here are £250/ day minimum

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Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best
 16 January 2013 10:22 PM
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antric2

Posts: 1266
Joined: 20 October 2006

Originally posted by: Martynduerden

I'm guessing its simply geographical variation, decent sparks round here are £250/ day minimum


I dont know Martyn.With the exception of London and its suburbs,I think most of the country is on a sort of level par of wages.Obviously some areas are run down but the cost of a job is the cost of a job.
Did you spark up in Burnley before you went down 'sarf' and if you did,do you notice the difference in rates
Regards
Antric
 16 January 2013 10:35 PM
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Martynduerden

Posts: 3219
Joined: 13 July 2008

Originally posted by: antric2

Originally posted by: Martynduerden

I'm guessing its simply geographical variation, decent sparks round here are £250/ day minimum


I dont know Martyn.With the exception of London and its suburbs,I think most of the country is on a sort of level par of wages.Obviously some areas are run down but the cost of a job is the cost of a job.

Did you spark up in Burnley before you went down 'sarf' and if you did,do you notice the difference in rates

Regards

Antric


Yeah I had a large ish customer base in the north in and around burnley / Manchester, from memory I was going in at about £170 a day labour only pre 2003.

I moved to the land of heated streets in 2003 at that time most work was SC. since moving 95% of my work is my own, there seems to be a genuine shortage of decent electricians down here ( no shortage of electricians) which keeps the rate up.

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best

Edited: 19 January 2013 at 02:55 PM by Martynduerden
 16 January 2013 11:09 PM
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antric2

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£170 a day pre 2003....not bad then but things were a bit more bouyant (or even buoyant) then.
 18 January 2013 11:34 PM
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peteTLM

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Originally posted by: Martynduerden

I'm guessing its simply geographical variation, decent sparks round here are £250/ day minimum




Martyn, if you dont mind me jumping on this.....for the south east.......thats £250 for someone with a lot of knowledge, niceic reg etc etc, new transport, every tool available, good attitude and people skills, working as a company.

£120 a day gets you someone who went to college for their basic level 3 and never went back to improve on anything.... basic subbies.

hard hat on and duck for cover!!!

-------------------------
----------------------------------------
Lack of planning on your part doesn't make it an emergency on mine....

Every man has to know his limitations- Dirty Harry
 19 January 2013 02:53 PM
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Martynduerden

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Originally posted by: peteTLM

Originally posted by: Martynduerden

I'm guessing its simply geographical variation, decent sparks round here are £250/ day minimum


Martyn, if you dont mind me jumping on this.....for the south east.......thats £250 for someone with a lot of knowledge, niceic reg etc etc, new transport, every tool available, good attitude and people skills, working as a company.


Should I take that as a complement 😋


£120 a day gets you someone who went to college for their basic level 3 and never went back to improve on anything.... basic subbies.

hard hat on and duck for cover!!!


I guess that's the employee vs company though @ £120.00 a day I'd go bust in a matter of weeks......

-------------------------
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Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best
 16 January 2013 10:16 PM
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antric2

Posts: 1266
Joined: 20 October 2006

Originally posted by: Martynduerden





£70😱 I've been paying more than that for labourers !


He offered to work for £70 a day but I like to think I am a fair man and I will pay him the rate if he is worth it,but, II want to find out if he is as good\efficient as he states or if he knows customer service\manners\quality of work\standards\testing \safety etc etc etc..
I hope he his professional or can be pointed in the right direction by me as he is a decent lad who is giving it a go.
Watch this space
Regards
Antric
 16 January 2013 10:08 PM
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DOUGIE1000

Posts: 4243
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Originally posted by: antric2

Evening all,

Well Dougie, you have hit on my pet project fact finding mission of the moment.

Last year I did 3 full rewires out of 16 quotes when normally I do about 8 or 9 from an average of about 12\13 quotes for rewires.My prices have not changed and i even threw in a bathroom light fitting and security light.

I called some of the failed quotes and even though I had been recommended it all came down to cost....not a smal gap but a£2400 3 bed semi with shower being lost to a £1500 rival quote.



My son told me of his mate, about 24 years old who had gone on his own and was unindated with rewires so maybe that was the answer.Not all lost work to him but a couple of other guys who were equally as cheap.



I bumped into my sons mate and he told me he would do 3 beds for £1200 because he was young and he had to go cheap to get the work.Fair enough, he does look young so understand his point.He gets someone to sign his jobs off.He also told me he worked for a local council housebashing and so he can and has done rewires in 2 days....ye right!!.



So, while contemplating my position I thought I might try him out on a rewire as he has now gone quiet.He is prepared to work for £70 a 12 hour day.I will,genuinely pay a higher rate if he is worth it.

My point...if you cant beat them...use them and bring them into the fold as it may work out right for everyone.

Regards

Antric


Our local council expect rewires of houses to be compleated within a day http://www.theiet.org/Forums/f...rewire%20in%20a%20day

I have employed several of these rewire sparks over last 3 years, useless cant test, dont know how to fish a cable without ising a grinder/hammer or a rotary stop drill, cant work from drawings, cant think, get stumped on simple commercial jobs, one even saying he dosent know anything about 3 phase or understands how it all works.

-------------------------
Dougie
Power Plus Electrical.co.uk

My mission is to live as long as possible......so far so good!
 16 January 2013 10:13 PM
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GJH

Posts: 512
Joined: 24 January 2008

I know a few lads who have just started on their own and that is exactly what they are doing. Incredibly low quotes just to win some work.
The lads i speak to ask me how much i charge and they cant believe it. What they need to remember is its not how much they want to earn but how much it will cost to do the job including materials, travel, insurance, FU factor, tax.etc

This is the problem. Not enough knowledge to quote the jobs correctly.
 16 January 2013 10:18 PM
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antric2

Posts: 1266
Joined: 20 October 2006

Originally posted by: GJH

I know a few lads who have just started on their own and that is exactly what they are doing. Incredibly low quotes just to win some work.

The lads i speak to ask me how much i charge and they cant believe it. What they need to remember is its not how much they want to earn but how much it will cost to do the job including materials, travel, insurance, FU factor, tax.etc



This is the problem. Not enough knowledge to quote the jobs correctly.

You have hit the nail right on the head!
 16 January 2013 10:19 PM
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DOUGIE1000

Posts: 4243
Joined: 13 August 2005

the same contractor is installing 10 way 17th edition boards for £170 but there this is another topic

-------------------------
Dougie
Power Plus Electrical.co.uk

My mission is to live as long as possible......so far so good!
 16 January 2013 10:25 PM
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Dave69

Posts: 614
Joined: 16 July 2011

well a couple of years ago when I was short of work a local contractor offered me some work installing fans in bathrooms and replacing the light and pull cord, he was paying £50 per bathroom. He told me his blokes were doing at least 5 aday, it was all coucil houses. I thought I'd have to give it ago so I took my son with me thinking he could be core drilling a 4 inch hole while i replaced the light and pull cord, fitted the fan isolator etc. we were given a list of adresses with NO phone numbers and off we went. The first house we arrived at, some 40 miles away was empty so we drove off to the next, the man answered door saying he was expecting a bathroom fitter to install a fan, he showed us the bathroom, told us to help ourselves to tea and coffee and then said, I hope you wont be making any noise as I work nights and I am off to bed now. My son and me looked at each other and walked out, jumped in the van and drove home.

I reakon each bathroom would take a sparks at least 2 hours even if you ran the fan supply surface in trunking rather than trying to fish it where possible across the ceiling, by the time you've core drilled a 4 inch hole, cleared the mess up etc. 5 in a day NO CHANCE unless you wanna work a good 12 day, but while people are happy to work for stupid money people will be happy to pay stupid money
 16 January 2013 10:26 PM
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GJH

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£170??? joker!
 17 January 2013 06:51 AM
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Fm

Posts: 1713
Joined: 24 August 2011

Lots of construction companies have gone down the tubes
Electrical contracting companies have done the same
Lots of sparks on the dole or a bare week
So they already have their tools and a means to get a round.
Pricing low hoping to get a few extras that will bump the price up( standard practice) or a loss leader or build up a customer base.
Come on its not rocket science and a well motivated spark,who probably did this on price work for a company can rattle them out.
A bit of competition never hurt anyone, makes you lookmat you business and sharpen up.
 17 January 2013 07:46 AM
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SherlockOhms

Posts: 348
Joined: 05 April 2011

I'm going to play devils advocate here.
I have to admit when I look at the price of rewires and I do think it's an awfull lot of money.

For a straight forward rewire (sockets/lights and smokes/fan etc) the materials for a 3 bed semi will set us back around £600.
4 days labour at £250? Total £1600 plus the VAT if reqd.

Is it being greedy adding on another couple of grand?

As with all jobs, it's down to the customer.
I'm wising up rapidly. If I get the vibe that price is the only consideration then I just put in my price and walk away.

S.
 17 January 2013 08:32 AM
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alanblaby

Posts: 747
Joined: 09 March 2012

Ok, I have sympathy for anyone 'down South' who needs to charge £2500+ to live. However, here in the frozen Midlands, I have just completed a rewire on a 2 bed bungalow, a real swine of a job for all of £1500. I've maybe made £700 on it. I don't know how many hours I've done as the work has been spread over 3 months - started last October, but certainly at least 7 full days. If done in one block , it could be done in 5 days.
I was told I was a little expensive when I gave the quote, but as I had been recommended, and was prepared to be flexible (whenever the builder had completed knocking down walls and extending the kitchen etc), I had the job. It's all good quality kit (RCBO CU etc), and all been done to the Regs.

There is a largish Company in Leicester who pay their sparkies £10 a hour doing Council rewires. Doesnt sound too bad at first, but that is self-employed rate. If there is a call-back, you dont go back, they get someone else to remedy the fault, and charge you £50. They expect a rewire in 2 days - yes, full rewire. I thought this would be stick on trunking, but no, it is full chasing out, they do supply a plasterer to make good. Then, if you run out of cable/parts, you have to pay to get more cable, as they 'always hand out the correct amount' when you get the job order.
Then there are numerous illegal 'fines' for turning up 10 minutes late, the boss asking for £10 for the christmas fund, when asked when the party is, you find out that it is not the staff party, it is the Boss's party.
I know all this as my mate worked for them as a plasterer, and I spoke to one of their ex-'employees' at the wholesalers. He said the same as me, they always advertise in the local paper, he was short of work, so thought he'd try them You need to write in with a CV and qualifications etc, making it sound genuine, you get an interview the day after they get your CV, then you can start the next day, after the patter from the boss saying how he is doing you a favour. Once you have done a day, and heard the conditions you work in, you realise what a mistake it is. If you make it to the Friday, when you get paid, you expect £400, yet only get £360, as you've been 'fined' for some minor indiscretion.
It sounds unreal, but I can assure you it is true.

Alan.
 17 January 2013 08:51 AM
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SherlockOhms

Posts: 348
Joined: 05 April 2011

This is all about market forces.

Several times on recent jobs I've questioned customers on what they've paid for previous jobs. Most common answer is £650 for the consumer unit.

Clearly some of us have had it good for some time. The shoe now, however, is firmly on the customers foot. Give it a few years and it'll be our turn to wear it again.

S.
 20 January 2013 04:55 PM
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antric2

Posts: 1266
Joined: 20 October 2006

Rewiring empty properties is a doddle and the price of 16\1700 quid is a good payout as you are in and out 3 to 4 days.
The £2400 comes in when you have 3 bed semis that are lived in and maybe cluttered to theroof and you end up backwards and forwards.

.......'Get the customer to move the clutter themselves'... I hear you say...we have been down that route where we agree slightly cheaper cost ,ask customer to move all stuff to centre of room(nights before we go into certain rooms) or empty cupboards\understairs\under the bed\loft etc and it doesnt get done so we ended up doing it then started charging £10 per hour for clearance which causes friction when you add £50 to a bill so now we look at the house the people and clutter and adjust our price accordingly.

If any of you want to do lived in houses for less than £2 grand then you can have them for me.

Self employed people should not be earning £10 per hour .You have had the bottle to take a risk,work all hours,take full responsibillity, get and keep current and qualified,finance all your actions.... do I need to say more.
Might as well go employed at Asda if you want easy but hard graft for £400 a week.
Regards
Antric
 08 February 2015 08:39 PM
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RB1981

Posts: 485
Joined: 16 September 2007

Originally posted by: alanblaby

Then there are numerous illegal 'fines' for turning up 10 minutes late


LOL. How can you turn up "late" if you are self-employed? Surely the hours of work are at your discretion!

-------------------------
Walsh Electrical Services
http://www.walshelectrical.ie/
RECI REC & NICEIC Approved Contractor
 09 February 2015 07:20 AM
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davezawadi

Posts: 3848
Joined: 26 June 2002

Gentlemen, you are looking at this the wrong way.
It is not that others charge too little, so you fail to get the work, but that your customer base is not recommending you to everyone they meet. This will probably make me unpopular again, but each new customer should generate 2 or three others! These complaints that you are called back to change the odd lamp 3 months after installation (or even a year) is your own fault. You are not selecting the fittings on the basis of hours per year, but some "cost" figure, which is very false economy as you are finding. If a fitting is on 12 hours a day you need to select one with a lamp life of 10,000 hours, not some halogen thing from somewhere where lamps last 500 hours if you are lucky.
How many hours do you take to remove a few floor boards and route a cable? Do you have every tool invented to make this the minimum possible time? Do you have the same to replace the board and leave the floor as it was before without squeaks, movement, or worse loose boards? How do you deal with chipboard floors? Does the result look perfect, is as flat as it was, and looks professional or is it a right mess which you cover up quickly? Do you make any mess whilst working or is the vacuum cleaner the first tool out of the van every time?

Honestly, its not rocket science. Customer care is the number one, because you know exactly haw to do the rest very quickly and to a high standard. (Unfortunately this is also rarely the case from the moaners who are not prepared to compete on anything, be it price quality, guarantee, after sales service etc.) If you cannot give a year of no quibble warranty on everything you supply or do, get some more training. It should cost you nothing if you do everything right, and more customers will follow in droves!

When you buy a new van, what happens for the first year if you find a snag? How about the first 3 years? (Go to the right dealer!). How does this compare with your service???

Works for me.

-------------------------
David
BSc CEng MIET
david@ZawadiSoundAndLighting.co.uk
 09 February 2015 08:16 AM
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davezawadi

Posts: 3848
Joined: 26 June 2002

Reading the above posts I realise some other things.

It seems that some recon on 1 day per room for rewiring. That is a very long time if you are equipped properly. What takes the time?

1. Chasing walls need the right machine, and a dust extractor for little mess. Chasing machines cut at 1 foot per minute in concrete or faster in softer materials. Box sinkers, and drilling jigs make box holes much quicker without any surrounding damage. Floors need extra narrow circular saw blades, a powerful router to tidy traps in chipboard floors so that the result is almost invisible (and a supply of chipboard to make new trap covers), a mitre saw to make the new pieces exact and square, an electric hammer / chisel / drill, core drills for holes through walls, and anything else you see in the tool shop which "might even save time once", because it will save you loads of money.
Most rooms should now get first fixed in 2 hours maximum, you work hard, but that's what life is. You make no mess and the customer only has you under the feet for a short time, and they appreciate it!

2. Fitting a new CU. Electricity off, remove all the old mess, identifying circuits so that you can leave almost everything working as long as possible. Fit new board to wall and wire tails, check earthing arrangements and repair / replace as necessary. Wire all old circuits to new board in a temporary manner, extending as necessary using a temporary big box and chock blocks or whatever. Have a cup of tea with customer, handing out anything you can to reassure them and create a good relationship. Rewire rooms one at a time to disrupt life as little as possible. Use chaser, jigs, hilti gun etc to save time and do a neat job.

3. Lights. In roof space it is horrible, and getting worse. Wear cool overall, the white disposables are good. Use mask / respirator/ compressed air BA depending on how bad it is. Put new cables on top of insulation, try not to disturb too much although this is difficult with 200mm of insulation in wide rolls. Use a long screwdriver / sharp steel piano / fibreglass threading rods wire to locate points, pushed through insulation from below. Make wiring look as tidy as possible with logical layout.

4. Floors. The idea here is to do nothing which you cannot easily fix completely and tidily. Having a carpenter as a colleague / mate is often better than a sparkie, if you cannot do woodwork. Many houses have floors which have already been butchered by others. Aim to put them back better than they are found, and as far as possible like new. Make traps square and tidy. Be ready to support board ends as necessary, to fit extra strips of wood / chipboard / plywood, glued and screwed in position. Use the mitre saw, router, electric screwdrivers etc. Screw all removed boards / traps firmly down through drilled holes, so that they do not squeak! Keep using the vacuum cleaner at all times. Drill joists where needed with a short auger bit with screw tip, in the centre of joists (neutral axis).

That's it then, Spend 10 grand on the best tools and save it in a couple of months. I avoid battery drills in the larger sizes, and other battery tools. You have electricity available and the transformer / cable is not really a problem. Mains tools are much more powerful, more reliable and available all day without waiting for the charger. Battery drills / screwdrivers of smaller size are worth their weight in gold.

You should get a three bed down to 2.5 days or less with a bit of practice. The biggest waste of time known to man is a "quick trip to the wholesaler". Plan ahead! Keep sufficient stock of you favourite brands. Bulk buying saves even more money and time.

Regards

-------------------------
David
BSc CEng MIET
david@ZawadiSoundAndLighting.co.uk
 09 February 2015 08:42 AM
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GeoffBlackwell

Posts: 3793
Joined: 18 January 2003

In 1972 my partner in crime and I rewired 350 council house in Ramsgate, Kent. We were self-employed (very unpopular then) and we did the work sub-contract, labour only. We got £36.00 a unit and, on average, we did 4 a week (in 4 days). That meant we each got £72.00 a week for those 4 days which was around twice the wage of the average electrician.

The houses had about 19 points, gas and water bonds - all surface wiring on drops in capping or mini trunking.

We had a system and, after completing around five units of each type, we could get down to one unit in a 12 hour day - running all the time - it was not easy.

As I recall - I did the first floor (downstairs lighting first fix, upstairs power first and second fix - all furniture and floor coverings shifted and then put back), my partner did the ground floor (suspended floor) and the mains and then he came upstairs while I wired the loft (fully clipped) and he second fixed it. The council inspected every one we did and we did not have to carry out any remedial work.

So one a day is possible but definitely not on the odd one off rewire.

I saw the way some council house rewires were carried out when I was an NICEIC Inspecting Engineer - one site I visited looked like a bomb had hit it. The family were sat in the middle of an assault by at least 3 operatives who just ripped the place apart - that is not the way my partner and I did it.

Regards

Geoff Blackwell
 18 January 2013 07:48 PM
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GJH

Posts: 512
Joined: 24 January 2008

Alan, i bet you've lost money on that bungalow job. No disrespect.

Sit down and work it out and i bet its COST you money to do it.

If it was 7 days, thats £100 per day, £80 after tax. All the time getting the gear, the diesel, time spent quoting it. Its not worth it mate.

Electricians should charge decent money for what i think is the most skilled job out there in the construction industry.

When you were called expensive who were you quoting against? The bloke down the pub, next door neighbour? An "electrician" who has done a 5 week course? We are multi skilled people and the industry has been degraded over the years and also a lack of public knowledge.

Gas installers come in and charge £2500 to change a boiler, £500 to fit a radiator and the customers doesn't blink an eye.Kitchen fitters charge £10,000+ to fit a Kitchen and everyone accepts it.

We charge £1500 to rewire a house and we are expensive!

You can see what you get for your money, that's the problem.

We are first on the job and last off it, and we are the most regulated trade on the job.

As long as we keep lowering prices and letting customers bully us into a corner the trade will never get any better. I have stuck to my guns and the price is the price, and i now win more work than i lose. I take time to explain the regs in the quote and try and be as professional as i can so they get an "added value" service.

I think the governing bodies should do more to help us create more public awareness but that's another post.

I know similiar companies like the one you've described in Leicester, but the lads aren't sparks. There is one qualified spark and 5 young lads. I have tested these places and its a death trap.

The most hated bloke on the job is the clerk of works because he rips the job to bits, Sockets different heights, bad connections, mess everywhere the list is endless.

I know at least 4 or 5 companies who have gone bump because of the standard of work and have not been paid.
 19 January 2013 11:34 AM
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normcall

Posts: 8514
Joined: 15 January 2005

Called out on Friday to a recent build 'posh' property with a report that they have a few lights not working properly and could I 'pop in' before their dinner party at lunch time!
The customer tells me the builder was rubbish, the plumber was rubbish and don't mention the carpenter! The electrician, however, was really good. Obvious question was why not get the guy back. It appears he came from miles away and has now died.
Problem was a 6 gang grid plate with 6 dimmers controlling some 48 GU10 recessed spots. For some reason they keep failing.
I agree to redesign and then we get the, 'when you return can you fix this little problem and this one and look at this..........'

Housebashers still manage to get it wrong - I dare not ask if all this stuff was specified as it did look very impressive complete with certificates.

-------------------------
Norman
 19 January 2013 01:31 PM
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peteTLM

Posts: 3715
Joined: 31 March 2005

overheating.......

-------------------------
----------------------------------------
Lack of planning on your part doesn't make it an emergency on mine....

Every man has to know his limitations- Dirty Harry
 20 January 2013 08:38 PM
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Rulland

Posts: 498
Joined: 11 April 2008

I find, and it does my flipping head in, that once you have done any work you are liable for anything else in the future, you fit an outside PIR flood-you get the calls to replace the halogen bulb everytime it fails, as 'you fitted it', etc etc.
'Can you put my 42" telly on the wall', 'Yes'-while your here can you tune it in, adjust the times on my heating, have a quick look at my intruder alarm, and while you put up a new light fitting in the lounge, move the old one from the lounge into the hallway and the hallway one into the small bedroom...................................all for the same price of fitting a tv bracket and replacing a light fitting..........and then they look at you like you're being a knob when you say 'yeh, can do, but it'll cost you extra'.

Is it just me that gets the feckers that want all for nothing?.

-------------------------
Those who make no mistakes do very little work!!......
 20 January 2013 09:10 PM
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colinhaggett

Posts: 465
Joined: 08 July 2004

Originally posted by: Rulland

I find, and it does my flipping head in, that once you have done any work you are liable for anything else in the future, you fit an outside PIR flood-you get the calls to replace the halogen bulb everytime it fails, as 'you fitted it', etc etc.

'Can you put my 42" telly on the wall', 'Yes'-while your here can you tune it in, adjust the times on my heating, have a quick look at my intruder alarm, and while you put up a new light fitting in the lounge, move the old one from the lounge into the hallway and the hallway one into the small bedroom...................................all for the same price of fitting a tv bracket and replacing a light fitting..........and then they look at you like you're being a knob when you say 'yeh, can do, but it'll cost you extra'.



Is it just me that gets the feckers that want all for nothing?.


The "can you just" people

 20 January 2013 09:13 PM
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Rulland

Posts: 498
Joined: 11 April 2008

Thats them....

-------------------------
Those who make no mistakes do very little work!!......
 08 February 2015 07:24 PM
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tickery2k1

Posts: 1
Joined: 08 February 2015

Look guys if you can gear up to do a rewire in one day and I am talking fully rewired not this partial rubbish also tested and certificated with a part p then you are behind the times.
This can be and is done on a daily basis.
For a 3 bed average size house with nothing too fancy should cost you around £1800-£2000
This would not normally include plastering.
 08 February 2015 07:44 PM
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antric2

Posts: 1266
Joined: 20 October 2006

Originally posted by: tickery2k1

Look guys if you can gear up to do a rewire in one day and I am talking fully rewired not this partial rubbish also tested and certificated with a part p then you are behind the times.

This can be and is done on a daily basis.

For a 3 bed average size house with nothing too fancy should cost you around £1800-£2000

This would not normally include plastering.


Evening Trickery,
Minimum 5 people of which at least 3 need to be qualified sparks, and 2 labourers who have done rewiring jobs,box sinking etc who are putting minimum amount of sockets and lightinging in a completely empty house with empty loft and floorboarded ground floor then yes at a push it can be done but todate I have not seen a job done in one day that has raised some issues with the client who ordered the work.

I have seen council rewires that involved an army of workers and what an absolute mess they make with no regard for the customers well being or security of the property.

Regards
Antric
 09 February 2015 07:58 AM
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dickllewellyn

Posts: 1410
Joined: 19 March 2010

Good words Dave.

I personally wouldn't dream of ettempting to rewire a house for some of the sums mentioned here. I'm quite slow with rewires at times, certainly if I'm working on my own, but I've never promised a customer I will be quick, or that I will be the cheapest. I firmly believe in doing a good job and keeping the customer happy. I've been known to help unpack tesco deliveries during a rewire, give the customer a lift to the station, spend hours in an evening with them going through lighting catalogues, repeat visits discussing different types of electric heating etc.

IT can't be a coincidence that despite being fairly expensive, I've got more work than I can cope with, I don't have to compete with other electricians, and I regularly receive bottles of wine, joints of ham, sides of smoked salmon etc for Christmas from clients.

Work up to a standard, not down to a price is a motto I go by, and it seems to work. When I set up, most self employed electricians were charging £25 ph round here, so I charged £28. Never had a complaint!

An old thread, but still relevant, and quite interesting to discuss.

-------------------------
Regards
Richard (Dick)

"Insert words of wisdom and/or witty pun here"
 09 February 2015 09:31 AM
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FizzleBang

Posts: 1309
Joined: 05 January 2007

When I was a school boy, the council re-wired the whole estate. Well, contractors did.

3 days and it still needed joiners and plasterers (and occasionally plumbers!) to put the place back together.

The Consumer Unit came with all circuits connected and bunches of cables hanging from them!

They did my grandmothers house too. They had barelyt got out of the door when the RCD tripped (all power circuits were on the RCD side).
I went round to see what was going on. Tracked it down to the fridge...or so I thought. If the fridge was plugged in the RCD tripped randomly. Left it unplugged while she tried to find a serviceable second hand fridge. Then even when the fridge was unplugged the RCD tripped one night.
The council weren't interested, They'd talk to the clerk of works...

After some days of intermittent power I investigated and found very low I/R on the upstairs ring (can't remember L-E or N-E) . Then identified which leg, After lifting a few floorboards upstairs I found one leg of the upstairs ring had been kinked where it came from below through a gap between the joist and the wall. They'd pulled it so tight that the CPC had cut into a neighboring conductor.

I replaced that section of cable and re-instated the fridge
The council just shrugged when informed what had been found. I bet those contractors were boastful of how fast they could do a rewire too...

I bet not many 15 year old's had Meggers back then. Although it was one that my mate had nicked off the same contractors when they were re-wiring his house!

-------------------------
To me, to you
 09 February 2015 11:55 AM
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davezawadi

Posts: 3848
Joined: 26 June 2002

It is not necessary to be shoddy to do a very good job quickly, just very organised and properly equipped. The guy with a pair of pliers a hammer and a screwdriver are long gone. He had no test gear either, or any certificates to say that the job was done to the required standard.

-------------------------
David
BSc CEng MIET
david@ZawadiSoundAndLighting.co.uk
 09 February 2015 02:20 PM
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FizzleBang

Posts: 1309
Joined: 05 January 2007

Originally posted by: davezawadi

It is not necessary to be shoddy to do a very good job quickly, just very organised and properly equipped. The guy with a pair of pliers a hammer and a screwdriver are long gone. He had no test gear either, or any certificates to say that the job was done to the required standard.


I'm inclined to agree, to a degree. Particularly on multiple identical properties.

There aren't many house round here that have light weight block interior walls that a box sinker would be usable on. At least not many that are due for a rewire.

Most that I did had clay brick walls with over-fired glass like intrusions. Can take an hour to drill and chisel out a double 25mm box.
Then there might only be 3/8ths thickness of plaster so it takes a few passes with the wall chaser and SDS chisel just to chase in a pair of 2.5's.
The housing stock I was raised in had hollow clay blocks for internal partition walls that really needed care to fix flush boxes in.
I have always done my own plastering because I make a much better job. You can't see any evidence of my chases once papered over!

I always make the floors good. Not just back how they were either. There is usually a load of treachery on the landing from the plumbers. I put that right too so as not to get the blame.

And that's why I'm out of it. For exactly the reason this thread was started.
You can't do a proper job, with pride and at a sustainable pace (for a middle aged man) and undercut the hooligans that leave a grands worth of remedials for other trades and just scarper.
The customer don't know and don't care.

As I packed up and went off on a new career the local rag had classified ads for "Rewires from £950".

[Duncan Bannatyne] So for that reason, I'm out..[/Duncan Bannatyne]

-------------------------
To me, to you
 09 February 2015 03:38 PM
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normcall

Posts: 8514
Joined: 15 January 2005

We've been looking to move to the East Midlands for the past 3 or 4 years and it surprised me how often I almost get my hand bitten off if I mention I'm an electrician (you all know I'm not, but so what?).
One builder who does a lot of local authority work I contacted to give me budget figure to install a main-hole on the drainage system, complained that he just could not get anyone decent and to contact him if we actually move. The current possible abode has no bonding, poor earthing, a bit of flex out of a joint box in the loft for an outside light and some garden lights installed not that enough ago that as a minimum, the .9 ohm loop impedance should have been sorted as the owner isn't short of a bob or two. The neighbours are already making the sort of noises that means I might keep myself out of mischief for a while.
The quality of work is generally electrically below what I'd expect for what estate agents call a 'popular residential village with good road links'.

-------------------------
Norman
 09 February 2015 06:03 PM
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ebee

Posts: 6340
Joined: 02 December 2004

Yep a one off rewire in an lived in property with all the furniture and belongings including plastering, cleaning and treating folks possessions and the folks themselves with due respect and regard can be very time consuming and worthwhile of a good result.

That can not be done in a jiff at rock bottom prices.

I`ve seen some ruff jobs in my time

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 09 February 2015 09:44 PM
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leckie

Posts: 4329
Joined: 21 November 2008

So let's have a think. Say the spec is for a 3 bed house about 20 twin skts, 12 light points, immersion heater supply, boiled wiring, fan to bathroom, fan to kitchen, 2 x smoke detectors, bond water and gas, new CU.

So the gear is say £600 to 900 plus VAT.

Even with the organisational skills and advanced equipment of DZ, he thinks 2.5 days, but I think this is for two men, so that's 5 one man days. Are these 8 hour days or 12 hours? So that might be 40 or 60 hours.

Are we lifting carpets and refitting as a carpet fitter can, or leaving a wrinkled mess? Full plaster of chases ready for painting with sanded easifill or just around the boxes with some bonding so we can fix back the sockets prior to the patcher coming in?

So you see really, like most jobs, if you are talking price you need a specification of what's required, and how it is to be carried out.
And the variation of price could be massive.
 09 February 2015 11:14 PM
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FizzleBang

Posts: 1309
Joined: 05 January 2007

Originally posted by: leckie

So let's have a think. Say the spec is for a 3 bed house about 20 twin skts, 12 light points, immersion heater supply, boiled wiring, fan to bathroom, fan to kitchen, 2 x smoke detectors, bond water and gas, new CU.



So the gear is say £600 to 900 plus VAT.



Even with the organisational skills and advanced equipment of DZ, he thinks 2.5 days, but I think this is for two men, so that's 5 one man days. Are these 8 hour days or 12 hours? So that might be 40 or 60 hours.



Are we lifting carpets and refitting as a carpet fitter can, or leaving a wrinkled mess? Full plaster of chases ready for painting with sanded easifill or just around the boxes with some bonding so we can fix back the sockets prior to the patcher coming in?



So you see really, like most jobs, if you are talking price you need a specification of what's required, and how it is to be carried out.

And the variation of price could be massive.


That's the crux of it.

Sadly the customer is generally numb to it all. They won't always understand the implications of such a large job. A main contractor or local authority would have an opinion on your spec but they'll try not to pay you anyway.
So Mrs. Smith won't have a clue. So long as she can have a ceiling full of downlights in the kitchen like Mrs. Jones next door.

You make your specification with every intention of leaving her home habitable. Your competition isn't so specific but when questioned they tell Mrs. Smith not to worry they'll do a good job.

The deal is sealed

I saw the aftermath of those boys time and again in bungalow city, full of widows, in the retirement quarter of the town.

They had the tears to prove it.

-------------------------
To me, to you
 17 October 2015 01:13 PM
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michaelward

Posts: 62
Joined: 25 July 2008

Some interesting comments and some useful information.

I have just had a report done on the state of the wiring in my house, most is C2 with a spattering of C3. The Electrician then tells me the house needs rewiring and it will cost £2500 and he wants the house emptied, needless to say that is not an option as it has all been decorated in the past 2 years, with laminate wooden floors being laid downstairs and up in one bedroom.

I know the work is extensive, but how much of my house has to be disrupted realisticly at any one time?

I think your comment about the customer being numb to it all is unfair. Mainly because a home owner is always emotionally attached to something they have invested heavily in over many years, pensioners for over 25 years and along comes some numbnut sparky who undoes all that over the space of 2 weeks.

I think the numbness comes from the destruction of their property..

I know what is to come, but preparing for that is going to be key to whether or not a good tradesman will get the job or not.
There are key points to remember when quoting for any job that involves the public and sadly something ignored by many trades in the UK. This includes people like electricians and plumbers, who get lumped into the Danger to Homes category, because the majority of them, destroy homes and don't repair. They disrupt the home, with little/ no regard at all, for the owner. Then charge silly amounts of money for the smallest of jobs.

Charge people fairly and do a good job should always be the motto for any trade, and people will always come back to you. Whoever I choose in the end, will get good referrals to others I know.
 17 October 2015 09:43 PM
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perspicacious

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as it has all been decorated in the past 2 years, with laminate wooden floors being laid downstairs and up in one bedroom.

Obviously the priority

Isn't there an expression relating to a fur coat and no underwear?

Regards

BOD
 18 October 2015 09:45 PM
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peteTLM

Posts: 3715
Joined: 31 March 2005

Originally posted by: michaelward

along comes some numbnut sparky who undoes all that over the space of 2 weeks.

I think the numbness comes from the destruction of their property..

This includes people like electricians and plumbers, who get lumped into the Danger to Homes category, because the majority of them, destroy homes and don't repair. They disrupt the home, with little/ no regard at all, for the owner. Then charge silly amounts of money for the smallest of jobs.

.


probably not the best way to endear yourself to a forum mainly comprising of ' sparkys', even if some of them have engineering council membership.....

As for the price (2400), it would need to be more than double for me to bother unless its a 2 up 2 down and was completely empty.

regards

-------------------------
----------------------------------------
Lack of planning on your part doesn't make it an emergency on mine....

Every man has to know his limitations- Dirty Harry
 19 October 2015 12:45 AM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 9974
Joined: 18 January 2003

Meanwhile I have completed another callout since my last post, the call came at ten o'clock tonight (Sunday) and I got back just after midnight.

Tripping RCD main switch so all power lost in a housing association flat, replaced one light pendant due to water damage from the flat above and rewired another because the insulation was damaged when it was installed, tested and certified, then back home drinking a cup of tea before bed at 12.40 AM ready to start again in about seven hours.

Not the kind of work I could do if I was doing rewires as well, as I couldn't keep disappearing to do the callouts and keep the rewire going at the same time.

Choices have to be made, you can't do it all, rewires and callouts, unless you have other guys to share the work load with to keep things going on both sets of jobs or else you are only going to upset customers and rewires are not the object of my desires, so I am happy to let others take the rewire work.

Andy
 17 October 2015 04:16 PM
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impvan

Posts: 922
Joined: 07 September 2005

Some nice emotive language there.. Trades don't "destroy" homes, and many householders have unrealistic expectations.

This is a recent development. Go back to the 70's and lots of people worked in construction, or in manual trades, even in agriculture still. The 'average' person had a rough understanding of what was involved in the work on their house, even if they didn't understand the intricacies of the trade. Dust, debris and disruption was expected. Segregation of trades was also understood ~ you accepted that your electrician or plumber couldn't do plastering very well, couldn't re-lay floorboards very well, couldn't paint very well, and that the other trades would come along after the electrician to do their bit. And that was fine, because you wanted your electrician to be good at only the one thing.

Fast forward to today - and the average householder hasn't a clue. The average homeowner isn't manual and has no real idea how things go together - witness the triumphal selfies when they simply assemble an Ikea kit or throw on some B&Q paint. The average homeowner expects to have all their windows replaced without feeling a draught during the job; expects a hole made for a patio door without a speck of dust. The plethora of 'makeover' shows have a lot to answer for...
And that's why someone who has "emotionally attached.. invested heavily.. 25 years.." is clueless ~ no appreciation that a drawback of having nice flat walls with buried wires, is that the walls will outlast the wires - at some point the wires will need changing! No appreciation that the overpriced veneered-cardboard flooring has restricted access to ANY of the carefully concealled building services. Why would you do it? It's like welding shut the bonnet on the car..

The above is why I withdrew from most domestic works years ago.

And that brings me back to your rewire... Firstly - why-oh-why would you countenance spending 2.5 grand on the say-so of one single report? The fact that on the back of his own report he suggests a rewire makes me instantly doubt the integrity of it. Has he declared your installation dangerous? NO! There's no C1's.
Next, if you're worried about the house being "destroyed" you have a couple of easier options: you could live with all the wiring surface mounted in e.g. trunking, with little disruption to the fabric of your building; alternatively you could arrange for other trades to come in and do the bits which your electrician isn't an expert in - get a joiner and plasterer and decorator on standby, experts in their own fields.

It's perfectly possible to rewire a house room-by-room, and it's often done that way on the continent - but it means spending more on cable, and having a bigger fuseboard though, so us Brits have tended to avoid the method.. Modern wireless switching is another way of minimising disruption.
 17 October 2015 07:50 PM
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hifly

Posts: 894
Joined: 06 November 2005

so you have spent the last 2 years making it all nice and now when you have finished with that you decide to look at the electrics, cart and horse come to mind and then you want to have a go at us because your have done it all the wrong way around and you need someone to blame but yourself, not a banker are you?

As said above people just don't have a clue these days, only this week someone wanted an extractor fan fitting in a wall but I was not to damage the wall paper as it's old, very nice and can't be replaced or patched, i suggested they opened the window if they wanted ventilation.

-------------------------
Vince

"If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a non-working cat."

http://www.ruttslanecider.co.uk/products

Edited: 17 October 2015 at 08:01 PM by hifly
 17 October 2015 09:03 PM
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antric2

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I blame Sarah Beeney and Melissa Messenger!!!!

8pm they can enter ahouse that needs renovating....815pm adverts.....820pm return to program and house half rewired,plumbed and plastered.swept and decorators arrive.

I used to use this line as a joke but of recent times I do think that some customers think 60 minute make over is actually done in 60 minutes....!!
Regards
Antric
 25 October 2015 11:46 AM
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aligarjon

Posts: 3854
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Originally posted by: antric2

I blame Sarah Beeney and Melissa Messenger!!!!



8pm they can enter ahouse that needs renovating....815pm adverts.....820pm return to program and house half rewired,plumbed and plastered.swept and decorators arrive.



I used to use this line as a joke but of recent times I do think that some customers think 60 minute make over is actually done in 60 minutes....!!

Regards

Antric


I know a decorators who used to work on 60 minute makeover. He said that they hardly ever over ran on time. He said they used to fit the tv's on the wall with no cables or sockets up there for them to actually work.

-------------------------
Specialised Subject. The Bleedin Obvious. John Cleese
 17 October 2015 09:13 PM
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Phillron

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I was a little more than amused to read that post by michaelward
Putting aside the grossly bigoted post he has made for a moment

Speaking as an electrician that is of a different species to the type he describes
I sincerely feel great sorrow for any electrician who may have the misfortune to carry out his proposed work

Customers eh,admittedly there are good tradesmen and not so good tradesmen,however,customers can also be classified with those same attributes
 17 October 2015 09:46 PM
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leckie

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Right.......so let's assume the sparky is good. Where does that leave us?

IF, the property does actually require a rewire, and we only have Michaels comments saying that it does based on the report he received, what will that entail?

Well it's occupied, by pensioners if I am reading this correctly. Saying the property must be emptied is pretty ridiculous. That is simply not possible in most cases, so we need a different contractor. It might be that the occupant has to stay elsewhere for a few days though.

So assuming it needs rewiring, there will be extensive disruption. Assuming it is intended to have flush wiring, there will be chases to switches and sockets. The floor will require lifting in places.if the laminate flooring requires lifting then it will either be ruined, or a floor fitter wil need to remove the floor as required to get access to the floorboards. It's not a matter of numbskull electricians, it's a matter of how are cables going to be installed. The client does not want disruption or damage to new decor, but how do you think cables can be installed to your switches and sockets without major disruption Michael? It's unfortunate if the occupant has recently had redecoration work done and new flooring but unfortunately rewiring is just about the most disruptive work that can be carried out in a house.

My advice would be to check with an alternative contractor if the report you have received is a true reflection of the condition of the installation. You do not have to have the writer of the report carry out the remedial works that may be required.
 18 October 2015 12:59 PM
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sparkingchip

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Originally posted by: Phillron

I was a little more than amused to read that post by michaelward

Putting aside the grossly bigoted post he has made for a moment



Speaking as an electrician that is of a different species to the type he describes

I sincerely feel great sorrow for any electrician who may have the misfortune to carry out his proposed work



Customers eh,admittedly there are good tradesmen and not so good tradesmen,however,customers can also be classified with those same attributes


Not a well considered post in some ways, for example in many houses pulling in a new cooker circuit would involve working in four or five rooms at the same time whilst running up and down the stairs and new ground floor socket circuit could take you into every room in the house.

Prospective customers can be their own worst enemies, for example those who point to a newly replastered and decorated ceiling saying "We want eight down lights up there" then look surprised when the electrician asks what is in the room above and says the floor needs to come up to be told they can't because they are covered with laminate flooring.

So?

Yesterday afternoon I went to sort out a RCD trip in a static two bedroom holiday caravan, just up the road from me only ten minutes driving on country roads, lovely location to be on a sunny autumn Saturday afternoon, every pitch has at least two parking spaces right by the door allowing you to work out of the back of the van and in a location secure enough to spread your testers out on the table on the decking outside the front door while you work indoors.
The job entailed testing to find the lighting cable nailed by the caravan manufacturers back when it was assembled in 2008 and replacing a faulty RCD, luckily being a caravan there are two RCD's in series providing backup.
Repairs completed including replacing a bathroom light with a new one they had bought, I then wrote out a test certificate on the personalised NCR sets I have had printed along with a invoice also written out on a NCR pad and took payment from the customer.

I would much rather do ten jobs like that a week than one rewire, the rewire appears easier it is one job, one client you know where you are and what you are doing. Doing ten small jobs means finding ten customers, programming the work, having a reasonable stock of spares on the van and more over making yourself available evenings and weekends, without being able to really predict how much you will have earnt by the end of the week.

I spent years working on new housing sites with electricians who single handed would first fix two three bed houses in a day and go home at a sensible time. I know what can be done, but it is not necessarily for me.

The problem I have isn't finding work, I could be working now on Sunday lunchtime, the problem I have is programming the work in a sensible manner and making money out of everything with too much time lost getting organised.

Andy
 17 October 2015 11:03 PM
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sparkingchip

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Why would I want to rewire a occupied house, when other work is available?

A last resort job.

Andy
 18 October 2015 07:05 AM
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leckie

Posts: 4329
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I agree Andy, I wouldn't either, but Michael wants someone to do his rewire doesn't he?

So let's think. I know, let's call in DZ! Read his post again; he can do all the work in 21/2 days and leave the house in a perfect condition! I should have thought of this earlier.

You see, this forum has the answer to any problem (only joking by the way David)
 18 October 2015 09:19 AM
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Fm

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Come on no one like occupied rewires all they take is a level of organising.
Having done it in the past, supervised it, managed it, it just takes some planning.
Same with electrical rewires done at the same time as central heating installs. Bread and butter for council contracts.
Throw in kitchen upgrades and board changes, these works happen all the time.
Some can do it some can't.
Some don't want to do it that's fine too.
 18 October 2015 07:59 PM
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michaelward

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Thanks for the decent replies, some just begger belief ,with asinine comments.

For those that have never lived yet, there are reasons why work has to be carried out, that is beyond the control of the home owner. If you have children how much would you do for them ? I think good parents would answer that they would do anything. Without putting too fine a point on it, there is to be a loan secured against the house, and the way that loan companies now lend mean they ask for surveyor reports, then go by what is said in those reports. The electrician has to write a report that conforms to present IET regulations, to do otherwise is illegal. There are those who live in council house and housing association property, that also have no say in what work is carried out, and yet there was a comment made immediately before my own post that said customers were numb to it all.

I have at no time stated that wiring has to be buried, nor have I made any assumptions, and I have merely posted taking into consideration what others have already posted on here.

Strange remarks above, the first contradictory at best. impvan states that people in the 70's realised that a mess is created and the work needed to be done and yet as apparently a 'pensioner', as if that should make any difference. Yet apparently someone who has owned their home for over 25 years does not know this. Forget over the intervening time did they ? I certainly have not forgotten what good tradesman were like. I did have jobs done at that time and the tradesman did make good on repairs, even to the extent they would arrange it all for their client. Fast forward to today and apparently electricians whine because they are asked to stick a bit of filler in a wall or clean up after themselves.

I asked if there was anything I could do towards the upcoming upheaval and what options were available, and just had some asinine comments made based upon assumptions that have no bearing in fact.

I have also at no time said I was unwilling to pay for work done, as an Engineer I get paid for doing a good job, and I will of course pay someone else to do a good job. Whenever I take on a contract, I do it to the best of my ability and if there is other work needed to be done, I will arrange for the appropriate person to do that work. I know what the whole job would entail, why on earth would the customer, that is why I am paid. I can remember my Dad saying, if a job is worth doing, it is worth doing well. Something which is apparently not even in the remotest way feasible from some of the comments made.

I also never tar everyone with the same brush, and far from being bigoted, I suggest people revisit their own posts before coming out with such comments. I came here to get some sensible replies, to a question posed.

I do hope the electricians I come across are professional people who take into account the customer pays them to be more than just some mechanic who can wire a plug, and they are able to assess a job correctly and the impact of that job, then communicate with the customer sensibly what the work entails.Most real tradesman know other tradesman who are quite happy to work with people they know, and price reasonably for a decent job.
 18 October 2015 08:35 PM
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leckie

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I must be getting confused here I think........

Michael, you are saying that you require your house to be rewired as far as I can understand?

You don't mind the work being carried out with surface wiring from what I can understand?

I think you want the property rewiring on a room by room basis to minimise disruption?

So what is the problem? I want to give you a positive response but your post is rather confusing. It goes from one thing to another. What are you actually querying?

You are the customer, so ask for what you require to happen, it's not that difficult is it? And if someone wants to do the job for you they can give you a quotation. Not that hard is it?
 19 October 2015 02:31 PM
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michaelward

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Originally posted by: leckie

I must be getting confused here I think........

Michael, you are saying that you require your house to be rewired as far as I can understand?

You don't mind the work being carried out with surface wiring from what I can understand?

I think you want the property rewiring on a room by room basis to minimise disruption?

So what is the problem? I want to give you a positive response but your post is rather confusing. It goes from one thing to another. What are you actually querying?

You are the customer, so ask for what you require to happen, it's not that difficult is it? And if someone wants to do the job for you they can give you a quotation. Not that hard is it?


In this latest post, for the most part you are partially correct.
I don't want the house rewired, despite the fact I do know that the wiring is old and probably could do with rewiring. However the loan company has made it a stipulation that the report by the surveyor of a rewire be carried out. Good news for electricians in general as this is apparently standard practice now. Bad news for any home owner as the majority of the UK housing stock will of course be out of spec.

As far as surface wiring, I can foresee that at some point the regulations will probably change to say wires cannot be buried in any substance, including plaster, and that they will need to be in properly earthed conduit. Time will tell. However I don't know if conduit is an option, as far as an electrician is concerned.

My original post questions have not changed.
I know the work is extensive, but how much of my house has to be disrupted realisticly at any one time?

I know what is to come, but preparing for that is going to be key to whether or not a good tradesman will get the job or not.


The title has been pointed out and maybe I should have started a new thread, but given this was a electrician quoting £1400 for a rewire, what is the difference and added quality that others offer, that justifies higher rates. If the electricians I have had in to do quotes is the norm, then you can understand the £1400 quote. after all what is the electrician actually doing when the house is vacated for them.

With a vacant house and free access to the underfloor areas, I know I could complete the job easily myself.

It is however refreshing to see that some electricians are willing to do the work to make good after the job. I wouldn't expect any electrician to pull up a laminate floor, which is why I asked about preparing for work to be carried out.

I would not want something done on a room by room basis, but of course could not move out so wondered if the house could be split into zones, as in do the consumer unit first with the upper floor rewired, leaving the downstairs with power, for things like fridge, freezers, heating and wall sockets. I presume the lighting could be done at the same time as the upstairs power.
 19 October 2015 04:53 PM
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mapj1

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This thread is a bit odd, as it seems that one or two folk have perhaps over-interpreted things and rather "gone off on one" when answering the question before last.

Actually there are both awful customers and awful workmen, and equally shining examples of both. Your mileage may vary - and part of that is being very clear about what should be done, by whom and when, ideally long before the first tools come out of the bag.

"Rewire where appropriate" means different things to different people, and the level of disruption very much depends on the foresight of the previous installers - new cable can be pulled in where the old one is pulled out, if oval conduits or channelling is correctly sized. Empty conduit can be plastered in and left in for later, though its a bit of a gamble as it may not be used. But if the old wiring was plastered direct and has multiple changes of direction and has been clipped in the middle it is easier and cheaper from the installer's perspective, to rip it up and start again. So if you ask for a cheap job, that is likely what you will get.
Equally what is the old cable made of - if its perished rubber it will have to go, if its PVC, and still in good shape, maybe not, and after an electrical test to confirm it may stay in service..

How many new points and fitting are needed?
Would light fittings be moving ?
All these factors come into it.
Anyone who quotes without asking about all this is not likely to do a sympathetic job or to take the re-instatement part as seriously as you would probably like.

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regards Mike
 19 October 2015 05:41 PM
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perspicacious

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However the loan company has made it a stipulation that the report by the surveyor of a rewire be carried out.

I've read many similiar loan offers but yet to read one that refuses a loan, they normally hold back the cost of a repairing a dodgy chimney stack or a rewire but advance the balance which could be 90% of the sum asked for.

On the basis that someone who bought their home 25 years ago and they've resisted the idea of remortgaging to buy a car/holiday etc so that the house will be paid for, any loan would have 100% equity. I find it odd that the loan would be conditional on £4k worth of work. Unless of course the house has been remortgaged and the loan is a good % of the remaining equity?

I'd try another loan company as I'm sure after 25 years a good parent would have paid off their mortgage and be in a position to shop around....

Regards

BOD
 18 October 2015 09:08 PM
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sparkingchip

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I stopped pricing rewires in occupied houses and flats several years ago.

The last one I priced included stainless steel downlights and fittings in the kitchen, a 10mm shower circuit and plaster patching, all things not done after the guys the customer found on a Internet job quoting website completed the job for £600 less, even though they said they could do the same job cheaper because they were specialists who did rewires day in, day out and it would be to the same specification and level of finish.

I spent time and money quoting that job, quoting it rather than doing another job probably cost me around £50, if I were a contractor employing a estimator it would cost me well over £50.

So having spent the time and money preparing and submitting the quote when the prospective customer tells me they can get it done cheaper and enquire how much I will drop the price by they get a firm response of the cost has been carefully considered and there is no prospect of the price being dropped unless something is taken out of the job.

To be honest with the talk of the "Good old days" in prior posts no one has mentioned the good old fashioned practice of charging prospective customers for quotes, a practice that could be completely justified in many cases with people just trying to get free advice.

A absolutely classic example of this is the person who phones to say "The lights and sockets in my garage don't work, can you come and give me a quote to repair them, you don't charge for quotes do you?" or "The electric shower in my ensuite does not work, can you come and give me a quote to repair it, you don't charge for quotes do you?".

The heading of this topic is about a £1400 rewire, well that is not an impossible task, but don't complain that the level of service and finish is not up to that promised by the contractor who wanted more money if you have not fully convinced yourself the contractor undertaking the work is working to the same specification.

It sounds harsh, but not every job is a job that the contractor wants or should be slashing their quotes to get, standards have a cost.

People keep being told to get at least three quotes, that means for every job at least two contractors are wasting their time and money even quoting, as I said there are other ways to earn a living.

Andy

Edited: 18 October 2015 at 09:16 PM by sparkingchip
 18 October 2015 09:23 PM
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ebee

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"standards have a cost. "

Says it all.

Otherwise get a quote from ebay or a fellah down at the pub.

Yes I would do the electrical work, including plastering (to electricians standard not plasters mirror finish standard) and "making good" to a reasonable standard and removing reinstating carpets (not laminate floors though) to an acceptable standard but warn customers that décor would be spoilt and need redoing (I would choose alternatives that would reduce this to a minimum but not avoid it altogether).
Once you`ve priced for this then often customers would not think it a fair price.


The only fair price is a price that is fair to both me and the customer.

Treating a customers house and furnishings with respect and consideration is my sole way of working but the customer must be realistic, many are not. I will avoid customers who want all this done with no more than the price of a packet of crisps.

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 18 October 2015 09:57 PM
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geoffsd

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Originally posted by: michaelward

I have at no time stated that wiring has to be buried,
 20 October 2015 09:38 PM
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sparkingchip

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So how much is actually original?

The original lighting circuits were installed as all insulated with plastic lights and switches as well as insulated back box lugs.

If you have or will install double insulated lights and switches with plastic caps over the screw heads along with a RCD the lighting circuit would be a C3, not bad enough to warrant a unsatisfactory report even though it doesn't have a earth wire.

You need to have a look at the Best Practice Guides on the Electrical Safety First website.

Andy
 19 October 2015 04:17 PM
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WiredScience

Posts: 318
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As other's have stated, just because one person has told you it needs rewiring doesn't necessarily mean that it does. Your defects may be things such as lack of RCDs, missing supplementary bonding and/or main equipotential bonding, damaged sockets or "old style" twisted flex to pendants.

These can all be remedied without fully rewiring.

I have in the past converted requests such as "I need a quote for a rewire" into much less costly and disruptive EICRs + remedials. One person was adamant that their property had to be rewired because the cables had red and black insulation.

If on the other hand you have bits of insulation falling off the cables a rewire may well be in order.

Only you have sight of the EICR, so you have to make an informed decision. If you have insufficient information, then request a second, or even a third opinion from a local electrician. The relatively small additional cost may well save you money in the long run.

If you do decide to go ahead with a rewire, then the electrician you engage is best placed to offer you tips and advice on what to expect. Some will happily complete one room at a time, leaving the old sockets and lighting functioning. Others prefer to disconnect everything bar a socket for their drill and, of more importance, the kettle.

You will gain much a greater awareness of what to expect, and what is expected of you, by picking up the phone and asking for advice from "real" local electricians.
 19 October 2015 04:25 PM
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normcall

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Rewiring an occupied house is a real challenge. Most of my rewires have been occupied and it does become a personal project as you will have no secrets from your chosen sparks.
I always start with occupied rewires as surface accessories and wiring 'concealed' in mini trunking, voids, cupboards etc. It's surprising have as the job progresses, ways are found to minimise disruption and visible cable/trunking by discussing as work progresses.
This is exactly why many don't want to get involved as it means actually talking to the customer.
This is the reason why I never provide a fixed quote, but time/materials with a budget target.
Get the right person and it will minimise the stress!!

-------------------------
Norman
 19 October 2015 05:51 PM
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AJJewsbury

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It might be clearer if you told us exactly what the C2s are - the only reason I can think of for necessarily rewiring is that the cable insulation is perished (i.e. pre-PVC) or it's aluminium and is already causing high resistance faults at terminations (it being impractical to find an remedy every connection in an existing installation). Once the C2s are cleared, the report should then become satisfactory and so presumably acceptable to the 3rd party.

Note that the report should only specify what the problems are - it shouldn't demand any particular course of action to rectify them (although that can be recommended in a covering letter).
- Andy.
 19 October 2015 06:55 PM
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John Peckham

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Michael

Just so that I am not missing anything it would appear:-

1. You have invested in your house over 25 years and you are emotionally attached to it.

2. An electrician has done a survey and he says it needs rewiring.

3. You said, "I don't want the house rewired, despite the fact I do know that the wiring is old and probably could do with rewiring".

You might want to give your insurance company a call and ask them if they are willing to continue insuring your property given that you have been told it needs rewiring and in your judgement, as an engineer, it needs rewiring.

Yes there are a lot of cowboy sparks around, a lot of then sporting various logos, that will trash your home, do none compliant c**p work and rip you off for good measure. However there are good sparks around who will take care to minimise the damage to run the cables as much as possible, do a good job and charge you a fair price for the work done.

I would suggest you bite the bullet and make the decision to have the work done and then write a specification for the work which you should have no problem doing as an engineer. Then seek out a number of good electricians by recommendation or repute and ask them to tender to do the work. Ask to see their qualifications and portfolio of work done before making a decision.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 19 October 2015 09:40 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 9974
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Originally posted by: DOUGIE1000

Seen this flyer floating about locally.



Up to a 2 bedroom house inc 40amp shower circuit and 32amp cooker fully rewired. -£1,400



That was the original post from getting on for three years ago.

At that time the following comments poured scorn on the idea that a good job could be done for that price and allow the electrician to actually earn a living wage.

Someone dug the post back up at the start of this year saying you can do a three bed for 1800 - 2000 excluding plastering.

Then the thread was picked up again this October asking what you will get for 2500 that you won't get for 1400.

First point, could the job realistically have been done for 1400 in the first place?

Second point, after nearly three years the economy has picked up with material and labour costs increasing.

2500 may well be a very realistic price for a rewire, none of us have seen the job to know, it is however reasonable for the electrician to expect the work area to be cleared ready for work and access to all areas as and when required.

Personally if and when I rewire a property or undertake cable replacement I strip as much as the old stuff out as possible and leave the building voids clear clear of redundant cables and rubbish, unlike many of the jobs I have seen rewired with lead covered, cloth covered and rubber cables still running all over the place and the rubbish swept under the floor rather than being cleared away with plaster off the walls ending up under the floor.

If the customer wants a tidy job above and below the surface then there will be a cost, to be honest if you pay for a low cost job and you get a low cost job you haven't been fiddled, so paying 1400 for a 1400 job is fair, as is paying 2500 for a 2500 job, it is paying 2500 for a 1400 job that diddles the customer, however expecting a 2500 job for 1400 is completely unfair on the electrician.

Electricians wearing breathing apparatus to rewire the loft, really?

Andy

Edited: 19 October 2015 at 10:12 PM by sparkingchip
 19 October 2015 09:46 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 9974
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Originally posted by: DOUGIE1000

Seen this flyer floating about locally.



Up to a 2 bedroom house inc 40amp shower circuit and 32amp cooker fully rewired. -£1,400



Another thing, that could be four circuits with a four way RCD main switch consumer unit.

Just how much do you want to trim the spec?

Andy
 20 October 2015 04:45 PM
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michaelward

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Thanks for the suggestions.

I will of course write a spec out, then ask a few more local electricians, although I may go further afield, as there are a limited number where I am. I have been to 3 already all saying pretty much the same thing.

As far as the insurance company is concerned, it is the same company as giving the loan, Aviva.

The cabling throughout the house is two core PVC on the lighting and three core for the ring mains. There are no zones and it goes through an old wooden backed, fuse board, which looks like Bakelite, and is at floor level.
The ring main was tested and gives a low earth/live impedance, however I did point out to the Electrician that to do this properly he should make sure everything is unplugged. everything was still pugged in.

I was told that all the surveyors are doing the same, when they see the old fuse box. These are building surveyors, which is why I had to get a report written out by an electrician. These surveyors are of course called in for any loan secured against a house, be that a mortgage of any variety, or equity release.

I am still arguing the toss with the loan company, as in my opinion a rewire is not needed although there are some aspects I would upgrade anyhow. An RCD supply being the foremost.

Am I right in assuming I can stipulate wall mounted conduit and where that conduit is to be placed for the main supply cables ?
 20 October 2015 05:21 PM
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perspicacious

Posts: 7854
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I don't want the house rewired, despite the fact I do know that the wiring is old and probably could do with rewiring. However the loan company has made it a stipulation that the report by the surveyor of a rewire be carried out. Good news for electricians in general as this is apparently standard practice now. Bad news for any home owner as the majority of the UK housing stock will of course be out of spec

I am still arguing the toss with the loan company, as in my opinion a rewire is not needed although there are some aspects I would upgrade anyhow. An RCD supply being the foremost

The cabling throughout the house is two core PVC on the lighting and three core for the ring mains.

Well that dates it between March 1946 and September 1966, making it between 49 and almost 70 years old.

Are any of the light fittings or switches metal?

As posted above, I still find it odd that the loan would be conditional on £4k worth of work. Unless of course the house has been remortgaged and the loan is a good % of the remaining equity?

I'd still try another loan company as I'm sure after 25 years a good parent would have paid off their mortgage and be in a position to shop around...

Regards

BOD
 20 October 2015 05:41 PM
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leckie

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Good job you didn't do the EICR Bod - you would wear yourself out on the observations page from the sounds of it!

Michael, I must say that bearing in mind that several electricians have visited and opined that a rewire is required, it sounds like it does. You could go further afield for more opinions, but how many electricians are you going to ask? Are you going to just keep going until you find one that says that it just needs a bit of slight modification? So say ten say it needs doing, but one is prepared to modify what's there, are you thinking that would be a good decision?

I wouldn't want to be living in a house with an installation as old as that personally. By the time you muck about swapping the board or providing RCD protection, find the low IR fault on the sockets that Was mentioned, you are already spending some serious money.

However, new decor and flooring will cost more than the electrical work. It sounds to me like you have a bullet that requires biting.
 20 October 2015 05:47 PM
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mapj1

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The low insulation resistance needs tracking down, it may be an artefact of the test method, or there may be something serious, the 2 core PVC lighting is not really very nice, but there is a lot of it still in service in houses with all insulated light fittings, and in reality it gives no trouble with an upfront RCD.

I'd suggest that the 1946-66 band is probably overly wide, and 1960 - 1970 is most likely, as PVC was not as cheap as rubber until the early 1960s, and therefore in most domestics, being cost sensitive, rubber would have dominated as the favourite though the 1950s at least. Assuming that the square pin sockets are originals and there are no round pin ones as well, then this reinforces the later timeframe.

Also the regs may have changed on that day in 1966, but in a pre-internet era plenty of electricians didn't catch up for some time, so I suspect old stock was used up for a while (and actually there are plenty of houses from about then when it seems no-one was too sure what to do with this new earth core so its not always connected anyway, or if it is it is just twisted hopefully nearby to fittings with no earth lug provided to connect to.)

Notwithstanding, we can't see it, and they can, so there may be many other factors that need addressing to bring it up to speed. (RCDs in the consumer unit being just one.)

-------------------------
regards Mike
 20 October 2015 06:25 PM
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perspicacious

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I'd suggest that the 1946-66 band is probably overly wide, and 1960 - 1970 is most likely, as PVC was not as cheap as rubber until the early 1960s, and therefore in most domestics, being cost sensitive, rubber would have dominated as the favourite though the 1950s at least.

Frayed knot Mike

From my esoteric collection, a price list dated 1950:

Twin "Capothene" polythene and PVC Sheathed 3.029 was £3 18 3 for 100 yds and twin with earth wire was £4 17 10

TRS was £4 12 7 for twin and £5 4 1 for twin with earth wire in comparison...

Regards

BOD
 20 October 2015 06:45 PM
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perspicacious

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Assuming that the square pin sockets are originals and there are no round pin ones as well, then this reinforces the later timeframe.

Again frayed knot Mike, my parents house built in 1954 was wired with 13 A switched socket-outlets even though they had to wait till 1959 to get the "mains" connected I can just remember the oil lamp on the kitchen table.

From a 1957 catalogue in the collection:

TRS flat twin without E.E.C. 1/.044 £27 0s 2d per 1000 yds

Polythene insulated P.V.C. compound sheathed type £26 0s 2d

And for MK 13 A flush switch socket-outlet, 9/3 in brown and 10/3 in ivory....

Regards

BOD
 20 October 2015 09:18 PM
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peteTLM

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Originally posted by: perspicacious

I don't want the house rewired, despite the fact I do know that the wiring is old and probably could do with rewiring. However the loan company has made it a stipulation that the report by the surveyor of a rewire be carried out. Good news for electricians in general as this is apparently standard practice now. Bad news for any home owner as the majority of the UK housing stock will of course be out of spec



I am still arguing the toss with the loan company, as in my opinion a rewire is not needed although there are some aspects I would upgrade anyhow. An RCD supply being the foremost



The cabling throughout the house is two core PVC on the lighting and three core for the ring mains.



Well that dates it between March 1946 and September 1966, making it between 49 and almost 70 years old.



Are any of the light fittings or switches metal?



As posted above, I still find it odd that the loan would be conditional on £4k worth of work. Unless of course the house has been remortgaged and the loan is a good % of the remaining equity?



I'd still try another loan company as I'm sure after 25 years a good parent would have paid off their mortgage and be in a position to shop around...



Regards



BOD


Sounds like a rewire required in anyones book.

-------------------------
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 22 October 2015 01:14 PM
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sparkingchip

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When the government were bringing in Home Condition Reports and sellers packs, now all water under the bridge, I considered training as a inspector. So I paid RICS fifty odd quid to buy their book on how the reports were to be carried out.

Basically they said all reports had to be a standard layout and use standard terms, a cut and paste job.

They said there was no room for individuality and from reading a report no one should be able to tell who wrote it, so that if two people wrote a report you could not tell who wrote which one.

There are times when producing reports of a computer I have used the cut and paste technique, it has a place in the system. But it has to be relevant to the particular installation, not just padding to make it look like the report writer has done a through job.

Regards the insulation test, if you fo a global test and test the whole installation getting a particularly good result with everything connected then why worry? After all, if the needle goes to the infinity mark with the appliances connected, then it will do it with them disconnected. But if it zeros out then it's time to disconnect appliances to establish whether it is the installation or a appliance causing the problem and of course the L/L hasn't been checked.

Andy
 24 October 2015 09:52 AM
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sparkingchip

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Michael.

I do see a bit of a theme in your posts concerning the use of permanently installed extension leads

If they are creating a hazard they do justify a comment on the EICR, we often see the extension lead contained in a hose pipe feeding a garden shed and leads under carpets in doorways that are creating hazards that it perfectly justifiable to comment about.

Andy
 02 November 2015 12:18 AM
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michaelward

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Originally posted by: sparkingchip

Michael.

I do see a bit of a theme in your posts concerning the use of permanently installed extension leads

If they are creating a hazard they do justify a comment on the EICR, we often see the extension lead contained in a hose pipe feeding a garden shed and leads under carpets in doorways that are creating hazards that it perfectly justifiable to comment about.



Andy


Extensions, that plug into a socket, or individually fused should never be included in a report.

You could make a comment or give advice, just as it does on that web page, but the regulations are intended to report on electrical fixtures that are permanent in nature, not something than can change by just unplugging it from a wall.

If someone was advised that an extension was unsafe and they unplugged it straight away, then the report that was made would be immediately invalid and the client would have every right not to pay the electrician for a false report..
 02 November 2015 01:15 PM
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Avalon

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Hi All,
New kid on the block here, new to the forum anyway...
I initially came to the forum as i recently decided to go sole trader so many thanks to all who post advice and take time to help others.

It was very interesting reading this thread and i too am the type to make sure the customer understands the nuts and bolts of the job to be done (some don't want to know) and is satisfied with the end product.

The reason why i am posting is i report extension leads in an EICR when they are incorrectly used, one of the worst examples was when checking a golf caddy charging room, i spotted a plug with a PAT Pass sticker on it, emanating from the plug was a twin and CPC and it disappeared thru a wall, curiosity instantly got the better of me and i went looking to see where it went, eventually i found the cable appear in the bar/golf clubs gents WC and was clipped along the top of a long stainless steel urinal...
To make matters worse there was no signs of bonding and the copper water feed pipe went to a ceramic cistern! The cable then ran down the wall and thru into the WC closet to feed directly into a low level tubular heater, it was obviously a diy job done by a club member but it does beg the question how it had a PAT Pass sticker on! And not only that but when i pointed out the danger and wanted it disconnected immediately i was told the last test didn't show it as a problem AND also had a Pass sticker too, i quickly pointed out the electrical system is checked on a 5 year 20% rolling plan.
Needless to say it was written down as a 1 as they wouldn't unplug it or allow me to remove it. My view is it's for me to highlight potential dangers from any part of the electrical system without exception regardless of condition, the plug/twin&cpc was in satisfactory condition, the tubular heater showed signs of corrosion (probably uric acid) but still serviceable, no RCD present and a 13 amp fuse in the plug on 1mm. I could have written so much more than a simple 1 for this one... i have a feeling the club secretary(Probably the DIY Spark) was the person who installed it.

It's been a very interesting thread to read as i see lots of different views, i am on the retirement run now and have been working with young lads who can first fix a new build in one day and second fix another day, ok there are 2 of them... all i do now is second fix and customer support.
£1400 for a rewire? I don't think so... i always add in the buggeration factor when pricing, i don't work as fast as the young folk but i use the same equation to price the job and if it takes me another couple of days to do it then it doesn't bother me as i want a happy satisfied customer that may come back to use me time after time.
The main thing that comes from reading the threads is that there is a lot of dedication to the electrical trade. My mentor once said if you hire a bad decorator you get paint runs... if you hire a bad plumber you get your feet wet... but if you hire a bad electrician you end up with a corpse...
My mentor also used to say ( when he said it... at the time it was true!) there are only 3 people it's illegal to pretend to be, One is a Policeman, Two is a Doctor and Three is an Electrician.

Best Regards

A
 20 October 2015 07:03 PM
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normcall

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BOD - You've missed the important bits.
Availability of the new fangled PVC stuff
The electricity boards used almost all that was available until BICC perfected the separation of core colours as round my way, mixes of PVC and rubber in the same cable was/is common.
Reluctance of human nature to change.
Rubber was so easier to strip than the plastic.
Don't forget also that light fittings didn't commonly have an earth terminal until the late 1960s so many third cores where just twisted together or cut off. Wooden switch boxes and large contracts started in the late 50s didn't have silly things like earth wires included in the price even though they still being installed until the late 1960s. Less than 200 yds from where I'm sitting one side of the road has no lighting earth wire and the other side just cut off. Other side of the valley no light earth wire - both estates straddled the 1964 14th.

-------------------------
Norman
 20 October 2015 08:41 PM
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michaelward

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Hmm I remember Bakelite light sockets in the last house, which was built mid 1950's and had a mixture of rubber and plastic twin, this house was built around late 50's early 60 and originally had some rubber wire in the lighting circuit in the loft. This was used to form the main ring, probably left over from something and used, with the switched wires being all plastic coated twin, red/black. The downstairs lighting is all plastic coated twin, red/black. Again the light fixtures were Bakelite type. No earths evident in any light fixtures.

@leckie I made the mistake of taking the first eic report and telling the next two electricians the house needed rewiring. This time I will just ask for a quote to change the fuse board to RCD and let the electrician check out what needs doing.

The report I think is wrong anyhow, as the electrician stated the following. "radial circuits off one socket exceed the permitted rules". However I thought for this rule, the radial arms would have to be hard wired into the circuit, and not added as fused extension leads, no matter what they looked like.

As it is not permanently connected to the mains, then how can it be part of the report ?
 20 October 2015 09:12 PM
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AJJewsbury

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As it is not permanently connected to the mains, then how can it be part of the report ?

The scope of the wiring regs (BS 7671) is quite wide these days and covers most things eletrical that aren't covered by other standards (e.g. appliance standards) - it's certainly a lot more to it than just fixed wiring connected to the mains.

That said, the wording seems to suggest an unfused spur from a ring supplying more than one socket (single, double or fused 3-multiway) - which might not be obvious from simple observation. Not unusal for older properties - partly because older versions of the 'wiring rules' used to permit supplying two singles.

- Andy.
 20 October 2015 10:12 PM
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michaelward

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Thanks to both Andy(AJJewsbury) and Andy(sparkingchip) for the explanations.

Lights are pretty easy to change for insulated types these days, anyhow. That would just mean two light fitting changes. All the rest are insulated.

I guess because of the way I did the extension and fixed the sockets to the wall for safety sake, he must have thought they were permanent fixtures, however they are on a switched 3A fused plug. Load current is small given they are used for low power devices. Total current drawn 2A DC @ 12V, plus a 40W AC desk lamp (180mA @ 220V) .

Loan is big due to factors I will not discuss here, roughly 20% of my equity.
 20 October 2015 10:25 PM
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sparkingchip

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And presumably adds to the loan making it a expensive rewire.

Andy
 21 October 2015 11:31 AM
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michaelward

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Originally posted by: sparkingchip

And presumably adds to the loan making it a expensive rewire.

Andy

Its not so much the rewire, as the price paid to do that sort of work is reasonable, given the amount of work involved.
I just don't like to pay for something that may not be necessary.

Its like going to a car mechanic and have him tell you because one tyre is worn, you need to change all 4 tyres, and by the way it is caused because a shock absorber is old, so he has to change all of them, because they are the same age. I guess that fixes the problem, sledge hammer and nut spring to mind. I wonder how many people would use that mechanic in the future.

It is all the ancillary costs after the work is done, which is my main concern as that will amount to a good deal more than the rewire.
 20 October 2015 10:39 PM
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mapj1

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Well, at the risk of going off topic, I've taken out plenty of VIR that I know went in during the late 50s, and there were plenty of 5A and 15 A round pin sockets still going in well into the late 60s - even in public buildings like new schools. I'm not denying that the kit was available, but it certainly was not being installed, at least in either East Yorkshire or Essex.
In any case the real question is the condition of what is there - some, all or none of it may be suitable for re-use. I suspect in 100 years time there will be some of the cable going in now still giving good service.(and maybe some of the older stuff too)

-------------------------
regards Mike
 21 October 2015 06:45 AM
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normcall

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This saga reminds me of a surveyor who popped his head into our loo and pronounced with great authority that the light switch was illegal and had to be changed to a pull switch. I simply asked which law and which regulation was contravened. Another big gap ion his knowledge was exposed!!

-------------------------
Norman
 21 October 2015 04:51 PM
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arg

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I think one issue here is who assumes risk. You have an installation with various deficiencies, and one option is to do a rewire; the other option is to do the minimum amount of work (or minimum amount of disruption) to clear the deficiencies to an acceptable level.

If you say "give me a price to fix the problem", the only answers you are going to get are prices for the rewire - that's a known amount of work and a price can be given.

If you want to go for the minimum change option, then there's a significant risk that you spend nearly as much as the rewire yet end up with something that's only marginally OK rather than the clean new installation that the rewire would have given you. But you might strike lucky, or you might consider that the patched up installation suits you better on account of the reduced disruption. Either way, no sensible contractor is going to take on that risk for you and give a fixed price or a guarantee of results - you're going to have to pay hourly rate for at least the diagnostic work and take on the risk of doing it this way.

For example, you mention an insulation resistance problem which you suspect may be a result of testing with appliances plugged in rather than a real fault. The only way to get to the bottom of that is to take the risk of paying someone to come back and test it properly and do some diagnostic work. If they find that in fact it's OK, then they can do you a new report (after taking a similar approach to the other issues) and you are happy. If they find that there's a real problem. maybe they can isolate it to a specific piece of damaged cable or accessory, replace that and again you are happy. But they might find that all of the cable is marginal and the the rewire is in fact the only sensible option - in which case you've spent money on the diagnostic work which you could consider "down the drain". I might argue that it's not money down the drain - now you will do the rewire and not be worrying afterwards that you did it unnecessarily, peace of mind that's worth paying for.
 21 October 2015 07:12 PM
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normcall

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"paying someone to come back and test it properly" - No answer to that one!

-------------------------
Norman
 21 October 2015 10:33 PM
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arg

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Originally posted by: normcall

"paying someone to come back and test it properly" - No answer to that one!


Sorry, poor choice of words. I was assuming someone different rather than the original tester coming back, and perhaps "to your satisfaction" rather than "properly" would be less judgemental.
 22 October 2015 06:43 AM
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normcall

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I think you got it right in the first place as 'needing further investigation' would have been a better conclusion rather than 'rip it all out and start again as I have no idea why I got the results I did'.

-------------------------
Norman
 22 October 2015 01:40 PM
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sparkingchip

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Originally posted by: normcall

I think you got it right in the first place as 'needing further investigation' would have been a better conclusion rather than 'rip it all out and start again as I have no idea why I got the results I did'.


Code FI gives a unsatisfactory report, so the outcome is the same as a C1 or C2.

For a satisfactory report we are looking for a C3 or no coding at all.

Andy
 22 October 2015 02:23 PM
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whjohnson

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Michael,

If you think about it, if someone were to have 4, 2KW electric fires off one socket the electrician would rightly scream fire hazard and overload, yet why on earth is the inverse not taken into account. People are not stupid, for the main part, they know devices these days are low power devices, that stand little chance of overloading any socket.


Would you care to pay for a professional Indemnity insurance policy which would allow that?

For example, could you guarantee that any future purchaser of your house would not go round plugging in 2KW-rated appliances into all of your outlets, say, in the event of a central heating boiler failure in the middle of winter?

Sure, you could wire 2A 'clock' outlets in 1.00mm twin and earth, but look at how many off-the-shelf appliances come with the 13A plug.
How flexible would that be to any prospective purchaser of your house?

I have recently heard that from 2020, gas central heating boilers shall not be permitted in any new-build LA/Social housing as part of this crazy Green initiative, and that the building regulations shall be amended to this effect shortly afterwards for all future new-builds/refurbs outside the social housing spectrum

That leaves a pretty big hole in terms of what will be used to heat people's homes.

Given that coal has pretty much gone, and green electricity is over twice the cost of that which is conventionally-generated, a few 12v cables strewn about the house won't give much comfort.

-------------------------
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
 23 October 2015 05:05 PM
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michaelward

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Originally posted by: whjohnson


For example, could you guarantee that any future purchaser of your house would not go round plugging in 2KW-rated appliances into all of your outlets, say, in the event of a central heating boiler failure in the middle of winter?

Well. that is my point exactly.

Let see now, just 6 sockets on a ring in each room could be an overload condition. 2.5 mm cable is roughly 27A max, that gives you a total circuit current of 54A on the entire ring. However given a ring is fused at a 32A those fires will just trip the mains anyhow. An extension is normally fused at around 13A max, so the fuse would blow.

The electricians job should stop at wall sockets, anything plugged in after that point being nothing to do with wiring regulations.

As far as boilers not in the house, I can't see it, unless you are going to have a CHP boiler, outside and insulated properly. Not many of those boilers around, So people are left with electric heating. Again that field is limited in technology.
Don't get me started about Cameron, conservatives believe in free enterprise yet they are getting into bed with a communist state, with a record of poor human rights, alongside a company that is 50% owned by the French Government. Where is the free enterprise, its in the pockets of conservative ministers that are selling off parts of the NHS.

Edited: 23 October 2015 at 05:24 PM by michaelward
 24 October 2015 09:36 AM
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sparkingchip

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Back when the socket ring circuit was designed homes did not have central heating, normally a open fire place in the main living room and possibly a small solid fuel boiler in the kitchen with one of them usually heating the hot water.

The socket ring was designed to allow the use of two 3 kilowatt electric heaters and a few table lamps and a radio.

Sixty years later the homes have central heating and appliances such as washing machines.

Yet we do not see these old circuits failing due to overload.

Yes, the central heating could fail and lots of electric heaters could be plugged in. I told some people not to do exactly that a few years ago and it was the DNO 40 amp main fuse that went first.

We are not going to design electrical circuits in houses in anticipation of the possibility of occasional use of electric space heating in every room without over specifying a system that is required to work alongside a alternative space heating system.

And up certainly aren't going to get additional circuits giving spare capacity with a £1400 rewire of a two bed house.

Andy
 02 November 2015 03:55 PM
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sparkingchip

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"If someone was advised that an extension was unsafe and they unplugged it straight away, then the report that was made would be immediately invalid and the client would have every right not to pay the electrician for a false report.."

If you take your car for a MOT and it has a advisory notice attached and you then deal with those items the MOT is still valid.

The same with a EICR, you cannot ignore a obviously dangerous appliance, so there are two routes to take either include it in the EICR or issue a dangerous situation notice and append it to the EICR with a note on the EICR to say it is appended.

Andy
 22 October 2015 12:38 PM
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michaelward

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I suppose I should have tested in the first place, my excuse is of course I didn't know at that time what the tests were.

Now I can see from the report what the tests entail, I can do the testing myself. I can also see from the electricians report he has made some erroneous assumptions, however if I were to find faults in the circuit after doing the testing myself. I would seriously consider a redesign of the whole house wiring system before any full rewire. Maybe any electrician doing any rewire should consider proposing laying in of low Voltage cabling to their customers for control or other systems. I doubt if the cost would increase by much but the perceived value and piece of mind to your customer would probably be worth paying for some.

In the modern world. with LVL, Solar Panels low Voltage signal and power, there is no point in rewiring a house for 240V mains throughout. Probably mains sockets on the walls, but lighting really is not needed to be mains, both from an energy point of view and a safety aspect.

I do tend to think some electricians doing the reports are pretty much blinkered by their individual governing bodies. I am talking specifically about something the electrician said to me about extension leads and the rules, I think it says somewhere that plug boards are not daisy chained, so as not to overload the wall socket.
All well and good in theory, but with today's systems of 2A supplies @ 12V being a heavy power user and a family household of 4 people charging their phones, MP3 players and all the other paraphernalia, 4 sockets are not going to cut it. 4 mobile phones and MP3 players probably take less than 1A in total when charging, yet each one has an individual mains plug. 8 in all.

I tend to think the electrician I had do the report was one such blinkered individual. Electricians should be allowed leeway to assess any given installation on the amount of power used within any given circuit, rather than have strict narrow viewed rules to comply with.

If you think about it, if someone were to have 4, 2KW electric fires off one socket the electrician would rightly scream fire hazard and overload, yet why on earth is the inverse not taken into account. People are not stupid, for the main part, they know devices these days are low power devices, that stand little chance of overloading any socket.

arg I did understand what you originally meant and am not pedantic about pulling you or anyone up on choices of vocabulary used.
 22 October 2015 01:24 PM
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AJJewsbury

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Maybe any electrician doing any rewire should consider proposing laying in of low Voltage cabling to their customers for control or other systems.

Just to clarify, I take it you mean Extra Low Voltage (i.e. not exceeding 50V a.c. or 120V d.c.) - the normal definition of Low Voltage is above ELV and not exceeding 1000V a.c. or 1500V d.c.) (comes of being part of an industry that starts at 400,000 V!)

As it happens there is some work in hand for d.c. power distribution systems - see http://www.theiet.org/Forums/f...tid=205&threadid=59712 for some earlier discussions - although it's still very early days. There's a lot more to it than just running an extra pair of wires about the place. Some existing system (e.g. Power-over-ethernet or USB) have to actively negotiate power levels. At higher currents one approach is simple to re-use the original a.c. wiring. Personally with so much still undecided I'd settle for a design that has cables to individual points in conduit so it could be withdrawn and replaced with minimum disruption and similarly maintaining good access to building voids.

- Andy.
 22 October 2015 03:10 PM
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AJJewsbury

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and green electricity is over twice the cost of that which is conventionally-generated

Given the rate that fossil fuel prices have been escalating over the last few decades and seemingly will continue to do so long term (North Sea gas & oil is well past peak now), it won't be long before conventionally generated electricity will have more than caught up.
- Andy.
 22 October 2015 10:09 PM
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mapj1

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well, right now, it makes far more sense to burn gas to heat the home, and get most of the energy into heat, rather than burn it in a power station and throw any spare heat away, then lose more of the energy in transmission, and then claim resistance heating is 100% efficient..

Unless the plan is we have electricity from nuclear that is too cheap to meter by about 2020 - which I think is more than a little optimistic, and a sufficiently fortified distribution, then all-electric heating is not the way to go.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 22 October 2015 11:47 PM
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geoffsd

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Originally posted by: mapj1

Unless the plan is we have electricity from nuclear that is too cheap to meter by about 2020


Don't hold your breath.

The government has guaranteed EDF and China more than double the present cost of electricity for building Hinkley Point.
 25 October 2015 01:25 PM
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mapj1

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I once got involved with a socket like that - expecting a poor connection or damaged cable but actually with nothing at all behind it. On further query 'I don't think it ever worked actually' . I bet it didnt!

-------------------------
regards Mike
 25 October 2015 01:42 PM
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sparkingchip

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I smashed the front of a faulty double socket because I couldn't get the screws out to fault find it.

Andy
 25 October 2015 02:09 PM
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mapj1

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Ah - oops! those safes would be more convincing if the sockets actually worked..

-------------------------
regards Mike
 02 November 2015 10:35 AM
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AJJewsbury

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but the regulations are intended to report on electrical fixtures that are permanent in nature

I'm not sure that's the case any more. There's a specific inclusion of 'wiring systems and cables not specifically covered by the standards for appliances' (110.1.2 (iii)) as one example.
- Andy.
 02 November 2015 08:40 PM
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michaelward

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I see your point with the MOT analogy, but once an item is fixed, the failure notice is no longer valid, the difference being that an MOT costs far less than an EICR and a second test is usually free. A lot of the time a garage will not issue a fail if the work is carried out immediately.
Now compare that with an EICR which can cost up to 6 times more, with a report being entered as unsafe, then have a second extortionate charge for unplugging something.

These rules are not hard and fast and electricians should not use them as a proverbial cricket bat around the ear to pressure customers.

All you have to do is look at the rules to see they apply in chosen cases. A spur in the case of Andy's example above could be considered to be dangerous on a number of factors, primarily though it was feeding a heater in a dangerous position, It was on a plug with a fuse, doubtless it was 3 wire and the heater was earthed. Pretty stupid place to have it and he did right advising the club it was bad practice, but unless it is made law that every builing in the UK has to be checked and owners must comply with that law, then writing something into an EICR that is not permanent is legally pretty dodgy.

What are the maximum number of spurs on any ring and what is the maximum length of the spur ? if you think about it for a short period, you cannot really specify how many spurs you can have, without defining the length, given that every ceiling pendant light, is a spur.

Furthermore can you actually define an extension lead as a spur ?

If this is a hard and fast rule, then why can you buy 4 socket 50metre extension leads, when the maximum length of any ring on a box fuse is 60metre and an MCB is 50 metre.

I will give you another analogy, you speed down a 30mph road and a camera clocks you at 31. Should you not automatically get 3 points for speeding, a hefty fine and as such be prosecuted for driving without due card and attention. You can bet that many people are grateful the police are not as pedantic as electricians appear to want to be, when looking applying rules.

Like with all rules, electricians need to be flexible.
 02 November 2015 09:07 PM
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perspicacious

Posts: 7854
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when the maximum length of any ring on a box fuse is 60metre and an MCB is 50 metre.

Is this one of your Rules?

Regards

BOD
 02 November 2015 09:40 PM
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alancapon

Posts: 6883
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Originally posted by: michaelward
. . . why can you buy 4 socket 50metre extension leads . . .

That is an interesting question. You can buy it because it will be CE marked. However, it will (should) fail a PAT as the cable resistance will be too large to operate a 13A fuse. You may even have difficulty justifying a 3A fuse!

Regards,

Alan.
 02 November 2015 10:07 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 9974
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Originally posted by: alancapon

Originally posted by: michaelward

. . . why can you buy 4 socket 50metre extension leads . . .


That is an interesting question. You can buy it because it will be CE marked. However, it will (should) fail a PAT as the cable resistance will be too large to operate a 13A fuse. You may even have difficulty justifying a 3A fuse!



Regards,



Alan.


All such extension leads should have a RCD hard wired up front due to the high probability of the fuse not operating.

Going for a extreme example of the use of plugs and sockets, consider a residential caravan park with several hundred pitches, the caravans are not exempt from the wiring regulation if they are connected to the supply with a plug and socket.

Andy
 03 November 2015 12:35 AM
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peteTLM

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Originally posted by: michaelward

I see your point with the MOT analogy, but once an item is fixed, the failure notice is no longer valid,
it would still need the original MOT issuing garage to check the work has been done to reverse it
the difference being that an MOT costs far less than an EICR and a second test is usually free.
[I]It is a prescribed fee set by government and a less than market rate in order to encourage people to have it done
A lot of the time a garage will not issue a fail if the work is carried out immediately. That would be mostly illegal then



These rules are not hard and fast and electricians should not use them as a proverbial cricket bat around the ear to pressure customers.
I think you're confusing us with plumbers. Houses are pretty simple in the run of things, its either compliant or its not.



something into an EICR that is not permanent is legally pretty dodgy.
Actually part P building regs were amended in 2006 to include otherwise temporary items used as a fixed equipment once the BandQ brigade started doing extension lead installations to sheds and greenhouses in order to get round quality and notification requirements



What are the maximum number of spurs on any ring and what is the maximum length of the spur ? if you think about it for a short period, you cannot really specify how many spurs you can have, without defining the length, given that every ceiling pendant light, is a spur.

I take it you have never seen a copy of BS7671 then?




If this is a hard and fast rule, then why can you buy 4 socket 50metre extension leads, when the maximum length of any ring on a box fuse is 60metre and an MCB is 50 metre.
want to revise that?





Like with all rules, electricians need to be flexible.

An EICR is a statement of the installations compliance with the current requirements, namely BS7671, and other relevant documents. Is it worth my liability insurance and possibly my house to overlook something just because it would be to someones financial benefit to look the other way?



-------------------------
----------------------------------------
Lack of planning on your part doesn't make it an emergency on mine....

Every man has to know his limitations- Dirty Harry
 03 November 2015 03:00 PM
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Avalon

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I like the simplistic view of using an MOT as a way to describe the EICR, however i take it to the view of an installation "when installed was correct at the time of design, install and testing/cert, i have often given an aged installation a "satisfactory" with an addendum of items to bring it to current standards... If it was right "back in the day" who am i to say it needs upgrading to current standards?
I realise lots will spout rules and regs to say other; BUT and it's a big But insomuch as If you take a classic or even a vintage car for an MOT it will pass because they use a realistic expectation of the day it was manufactured for braking distances etc. Not once has a garage say "With sharp intake of Breath" Oh You need those rear brake drums/shoes replaced with disks/pads!
I tend to take the view of if it is serviceable and safe it's good to be used and spend more time looking for parts of the system that are potential hazards.
I have been asked to quote for remedial for an EICR done by others and often don't agree with their recommendations, i would imagine lots of you have had the same problem?
Why any inspection would report all conductors need to identified to BS7671 is beyond belief when one simple sticker on the DB would suffice.

I was pleased to read in this thread regarding twin cables only for lighting and replacing the metal fittings with DI ceiling roses/RCD as an option! As a genuine trader that should always be the first option to the client, however i have to say we all need to sing from the same sheet... on the one hand you have A.N.Other spark saying you need a complete rewire and i rock up saying you can save 2 grand if you agree to choose different lights!
The customer is always King for their choice and most will look at their bank balance and choose what's right for them!

Getting back to EICR i know for sure on the day when its checked and signed it's a massive statement of the condition; the next day when it's used is just like an MOT, Once you leave the garage its only a snap shot of how it was checked "at that Moment in Time". Lots of legal eagles will try to prove there was neglect during testing which is why we do what we do! Testing...

Best Regards

A
 03 November 2015 03:52 PM
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geoffsd

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Originally posted by: Avalon
we all need to sing from the same sheet...


I spot a flaw.
 02 November 2015 10:16 PM
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mapj1

Posts: 9371
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The point is that BS7671 assumes certain disconnection times and rather idealised short circuiut faults. These requiremetns are not required to be met as part of the plug and socket spec. Also you may plug that lead into the furthest socket on the ring and get a double dose of voltage drop, or plug one lead into another.

BS EN61242 I think defines some maximum recommended impedances /

-------------------------
regards Mike


Edited: 02 November 2015 at 10:26 PM by mapj1
 02 November 2015 10:59 PM
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sparkingchip

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I'm waiting for Bod to start commenting on how long I've had a extension lead powering up my Wifi with it running across the hall.

Do as I say, not as I do



Andy
 03 November 2015 09:12 AM
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mapj1

Posts: 9371
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At the very least, the use of an extension lead as semi-permanent means that the original socket is not really in the ideal place, or there are not enough of them, and that in turn implies that the current use of the installation is different to that originally planned (who knows what was originally planned in some cases)
Now that may be fine, but it may be an early warning of other hazards. Remember far more folk are hurt in trips and falls, numbers in the thousands per year in the UK, than are ever electrocuted, which is single figures to about 20 depending on the year and if you include various nasty industrial accidents or just domestic, and you can play with appliances versus fixed wiring to reduce that number a bit. I grant you a higher number get a shock, and that may not be recorded, than are electrocuted outright, but then a lot of folk sprain an ankle and don't report it either.
It may be OK, and just an observation rather than a formal BS7671 line item, but like 'beware of the missing floorboards' or damage to damp course or fire barriers it ought to be raised.

-------------------------
regards Mike
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