IET
Decrease font size
Increase font size
Topic Title: Are wind turbines working in the current cold snap?
Topic Summary: Are wind turbines working in the current cold snap?
Created On: 20 January 2013 08:38 PM
Status: Read Only
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
1 2 Next Last unread
Search Topic Search Topic
Topic Tools Topic Tools
View similar topics View similar topics
View topic in raw text format. Print this topic.
 20 January 2013 08:38 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



cookers

Posts: 205
Joined: 10 February 2012

My limited observations are that most wind turbines appear to be shutdown at the moment, is this because of the risk of operational problems caused by ice and snow ?.

Or maybe is it just co-incidence?
 21 January 2013 11:44 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



jarathoon

Posts: 1041
Joined: 05 September 2004

See this site

http://www.bmreports.com/bsp/bsp_home.htm

See for example generation by fuel type table, in the last 24 hours wind contributed 5.6% of total generation. Similar amounts of generation in last half hour.

So not all turbines have stopped quite yet.

James Arathoon




-------------------------
James Arathoon
 23 January 2013 12:08 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



cookers

Posts: 205
Joined: 10 February 2012

Thanks James,

I am sure this has all been thought through!
 24 January 2013 11:19 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



jcm256

Posts: 1867
Joined: 01 April 2006

No the ones on the hills near me do not turn much these days in the cold, well a little sometimes. Wonder, do the rich foreign owners, still get paid at times when producing little power.

In addition, on and on the madness continues.

No wind, so they will build them higher

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-21147279

Even 9hours ago wind farms affecting the weather forecast.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...html?ito=feeds-newsxml
 24 January 2013 05:24 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for aroscoe.
aroscoe

Posts: 91
Joined: 18 October 2002

Quite a lot last friday, but not so much the last couple of days.

With flashy graphics ....

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

-------------------------
Dr. Andrew Roscoe

http://personal.strath.ac.uk/andrew.j.roscoe
 24 January 2013 08:49 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



cookers

Posts: 205
Joined: 10 February 2012

Thanks Andrew,

I must admit to some surprise and disappointment at how little wind energy contributes to our power needs, I really hoped it would be a better outcome, and that my observations were somehow flawed.

Am I correct in assuming that if we use wind energy for supplying the Grid we have to invest in a 100% backup more reliable energy source, if we want to keep the lights on?

Am I correct in assuming that this need for a back up must make wind energy a very poor way to generate electricity for the Grid, perhaps not sustainable economically.

I can only assume all of this has been considered by policymakers, and they have made choices for reasons of which I am not aware.
 24 January 2013 10:32 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for JonathanHill.
JonathanHill

Posts: 225
Joined: 09 September 2002

I dug down on this a while ago. I'm pretty sure that this site is only reporting on a proportion of installed wind capacity.

-------------------------
Jonno
 25 January 2013 12:51 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



alancapon

Posts: 5770
Joined: 27 December 2005

Originally posted by: cookers
. . . Am I correct in assuming that if we use wind energy for supplying the Grid we have to invest in a 100% backup more reliable energy source, if we want to keep the lights on? . . .

Pretty much, assuming you expect the lights to come on each time you press the switch.

. . . Am I correct in assuming that this need for a back up must make wind energy a very poor way to generate electricity for the Grid, perhaps not sustainable economically. . .



Regards,

Alan.
 25 January 2013 11:37 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



cookers

Posts: 205
Joined: 10 February 2012

Originally posted by: JonathanHill

I dug down on this a while ago. I'm pretty sure that this site is only reporting on a proportion of installed wind capacity.


Jonno,

Subjectively, I suspected the same myself, surely it must be more than that!, however both sites mentioned here give more or less the same extremely disappointing data.

I accept you reached this conclusion by having access to correct information, can you let us know where the correct information resides?
 25 January 2013 02:40 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for JonathanHill.
JonathanHill

Posts: 225
Joined: 09 September 2002

I believe I found a list of the wind farms included in these reports on the NETA site and compared them and found them to be missing many sites on a list from the Renewable UK site. I'll see if I can find time over the weekend to track back.

-------------------------
Jonno
 25 January 2013 08:55 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



cookers

Posts: 205
Joined: 10 February 2012

Originally posted by: JonathanHill

I believe I found a list of the wind farms included in these reports on the NETA site and compared them and found them to be missing many sites on a list from the Renewable UK site. I'll see if I can find time over the weekend to track back.


Jonno,

I decided to do a bit of investigation myself and discovered the discrepancy you note is well known. The missing sites are local wind generation (not grid connected) that account for additional 40% of installed capacity.

I would think it likely that these local wind farms generated electricity in line with those that are grid connected so the picture is still disappointing.

Perhaps those that are skeptical of wind power, as it is presently conceived, have a point.
 27 January 2013 02:41 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



westonpa

Posts: 1771
Joined: 10 October 2007

The 9 turbines near me stopped during the cold spell but as I understand things the farmer receives £9k a year for each one of them and so I am sure he is still warm.

Regards.
 02 February 2013 08:45 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



cookers

Posts: 205
Joined: 10 February 2012

I did expect somebody from the wind energy industry to reply and tell me all was well, and that my observations of the wind turbines being taken out of use in cold icy weather was wrong.

All energy systems are subject to disruption, however wind turbines appear not to generate in cold icy weather, so if we do get a severe winter I can quite easily foresee circumstances when this would bring about national social disruption.
 03 February 2013 06:05 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



Ipayyoursalary

Posts: 265
Joined: 21 November 2009

Cookers, er... I believe the appropriate response to your discovery that wind farms aren't much use at generating electricity is "No sh1t Sherlock".

But you've misunderstood their purpose. It is not to generate reliable cheap electricity, of which they are incapable. Their purpose is to transfer wealth from poor energy bill payers to rich land owners and foreign ruinables companies. And for that purpose they are eminently suited.

I did expect somebody from the wind energy industry to reply and tell me all was well

If they were to pull their head out of the subsidy trough long enough to reply, the justification would be something like "climate change... cough....saving the planet... mumble.... green growth...." before giving you a smug sanctimonious smile and plunging their head back into the subsidy trough.
 03 February 2013 09:43 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



dlane

Posts: 690
Joined: 28 September 2007

Originally posted by: cookers

Am I correct in assuming that if we use wind energy for supplying the Grid we have to invest in a 100% backup more reliable energy source, if we want to keep the lights on?


Depends how you want to look at it, there are those that are of the belief that if enough wind generation is installed, but distributed across the country then it can act as a backup for itself as the climate at any moment in time varies across the country so the right conditions for the wind turbines is likely to exist somewhere.

Ultimately no matter what the technology used for electricity generation, the Grid has always had spinning reserve and fast response stations on standby to act as a backup for lost generation.

Kind regards

Donald Lane
 03 February 2013 09:44 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



cookers

Posts: 205
Joined: 10 February 2012

Originally posted by: Ipayyoursalary

Cookers, er... I believe the appropriate response to your discovery that wind farms aren't much use at generating electricity is "No sh1t Sherlock".



.

Thanks for that, I must admit it does seem that all is not well with the direction of energy policy.

The turbines may indeed be a useless monument to a failed belief.

However I was hoping!!!!
 04 February 2013 08:51 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



Ipayyoursalary

Posts: 265
Joined: 21 November 2009

Originally posted by: dlane
there are those that are of the belief that if enough wind generation is installed across the country then it can act as a backup for itself as the climate at any moment in time varies across the country so the right conditions for the wind turbines is likely to exist somewhere.

A 'belief' that can easily be dismissed by looking at the actual data from UK windfarms as the John Muir Trust reported in 2011:

On 124 separate occasions from November 2008 to December 2010, the total generation from the windfarms metered by National Grid was less than 20MW (a fraction of the 450MW expected from a capacity in excess of 1600 MW). These periods of low wind lasted an average of 4.5 hours.

At each of the four highest peak demand points of 2010, wind output was extremely low at 4.72%, 5.51%, 2.59% and 2.51% of capacity at peak demand.
 04 February 2013 09:17 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



cookers

Posts: 205
Joined: 10 February 2012

Just Dreaming!

Wind Turbine energy generation could be made OK, if (and its a big if!) some way of storing energy could be configured.

I always look at the tall towers and wonder if that height and structure of the tower could be utilised, my mind skips through all sorts of systems of rising weights and mechanical mechanisms.

However it appears there are fundamental issues, and most of the time my observations are the turbines are stationary, it appears too much or too little wind, ice, snow, cold will all result in the plant being out of use, the turbines only appear to operate in a very narrow "goldilocks" climate window.
 04 February 2013 09:21 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



Ipayyoursalary

Posts: 265
Joined: 21 November 2009

@dlane: Or if you don't want to take someone else's word for it, you can download the data yourself and do the analysis: it only takes a minute. Details in this thread.
 07 February 2013 11:35 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



dsamuel

Posts: 2
Joined: 31 January 2013

Hello everyone,

Wind power contributed over 12% to the UK grid last weekend - A new record!

I've lifted the RenewableUK press release below:

"A record amount of electricity has been generated by wind energy in Great Britain, according to National Grid.
The new high was reached on Sunday morning, when wind generated more than 5 gigawatts for the first time - more than 12% of the nation's electricity needs for industry, businesses and households - enough to power more than ten million British homes.
It's the first time that wind energy has exceeded the 5 gigawatt threshold in Britain.

RenewableUK's Deputy Chief Executive Maf Smith said:
"This new record proves that Britain is generating an increasingly significant amount of clean electricity from wind. The quantity of low-carbon energy that wind is feeding into the grid is continuing to surge upwards. We're set to generate at least 15% of the UK's electricity from wind by 2020.

As well as creating tens of thousands of green-collar jobs, and the wider environmental benefits, wind gives us another very important advantage - energy security. The UK can take control of the way we generate our power by using a secure, natural, local source of energy rather than relying on imports of expensive fossil fuels from unstable parts of the world. Wind as a crucial part of our energy mix and is becoming more important as extra onshore and offshore capacity is added to the system."

In fact, the total amount of electricity generated from wind in the UK is even higher. A further 2.5 gigawatts of wind capacity, which is connected to local and regional electricity networks, is not metered. This extra output isn't recorded by National Grid officials because most of it usually serves the local area rather than being fed into the grid nationwide. "

Cheers,
Dave
IET » Energy » Are wind turbines working in the current cold snap?

1 2 Next Last unread
Topic Tools Topic Tools
Statistics

See Also:



FuseTalk Standard Edition v3.2 - © 1999-2014 FuseTalk Inc. All rights reserved.