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Topic Title: deterring bats
Topic Summary: with lights
Created On: 01 February 2013 06:34 PM
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 01 February 2013 06:34 PM
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Zs

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Hi, I am to look at a job tomorrow where I am to be asked to install lighting to deter bats.

Apparently the local bats are called pumpernickel bats and you can fit three in a matchbox.

The location is very dark, no light pollution and is in a National Trust owned part of the countryside.

The owner has applied for planning permission to do a job on his home involving Dormer windows and so on. He has been advised that between now and then he must deter bats because work will not be permitted if he has them. Chances of him getting them are very high.

I am to light the loft and the eaves voids so I need something cool. I am also to put some lighting up outside.

I'm thinking straightforward fluorescent strips for the eaves and the loft because they run cool. I am thinking LED facing downwards for outdoors so as to keep the light pollution to a minimum (let's face it, LED has absolutely no value as spreading light), but I'm asking on here first in case you have any knowledge relative to bat deterrent lighting.

Zs

Edit, I think he might mean pipistrelle...google tells me that pumpernickel bat is just a piece of german bread cut into a bat shape. I'll pretend I don't know that when I go there.
 01 February 2013 06:52 PM
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slittle

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How about sticky backed LED strip. Not perhaps the cheapest option but it's flexible and with a bit of care you can fit it to most angles of roof


Stu
 01 February 2013 07:32 PM
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stateit

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I think you'll find they're called Pipistrelle Bats !!

Tiny little boogers.

Too small for my cat to catch, anyway. I had a (live) brown long-eared bat brought into the house last summer...

[edit] Your edit has made my post redundant [/edit]

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S George
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 01 February 2013 07:37 PM
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potential

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Originally posted by: Zs
Hi, I am to look at a job tomorrow where I am to be asked to install lighting to deter bats.
Apparently the local bats are called pumpernickel bats and you can fit three in a matchbox.
The location is very dark, no light pollution and is in a National Trust owned part of the countryside.
The owner has applied for planning permission to do a job on his home involving Dormer windows and so on. He has been advised that between now and then he must deter bats because work will not be permitted if he has them. Chances of him getting them are very high.



I am to light the loft and the eaves voids so I need something cool. I am also to put some lighting up outside.


He has been advised that between now and then he must deter bats because work will not be permitted if he has them.

I think that advice is wrong.

I quote from "Bats and the law"
http://www.bats.org.uk/pages/b...nd_the_law.html


I draw attention to:
In Britain all bat species and their roosts are legally protected, by both domestic and international legislation.

This means you will be committing a criminal offence if you.

3.Damage or destroy a bat roosting place (even if bats are not occupying the roost at the time)

5.Intentionally or recklessly obstruct access to a bat roost
 01 February 2013 10:03 PM
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peteTLM

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Originally posted by: potential

Originally posted by: Zs

Hi, I am to look at a job tomorrow where I am to be asked to install lighting to deter bats.

Apparently the local bats are called pumpernickel bats and you can fit three in a matchbox.

The location is very dark, no light pollution and is in a National Trust owned part of the countryside.

The owner has applied for planning permission to do a job on his home involving Dormer windows and so on. He has been advised that between now and then he must deter bats because work will not be permitted if he has them. Chances of him getting them are very high.







I am to light the loft and the eaves voids so I need something cool. I am also to put some lighting up outside.





He has been advised that between now and then he must deter bats because work will not be permitted if he has them.


I think that advice is wrong.



I quote from "Bats and the law"

">http://www.bats.org.uk...s/b.....html





I draw attention to:

In Britain all bat species and their roosts are legally protected, by both domestic and international legislation.



This means you will be committing a criminal offence if you.



3.Damage or destroy a bat roosting place (even if bats are not occupying the roost at the time)



5.Intentionally or recklessly obstruct access to a bat roost


well, yes...........but, we all know that if they were in our houses we would all set fire to them with a blowtorch.

-------------------------
----------------------------------------
Lack of planning on your part doesn't make it an emergency on mine....

Every man has to know his limitations- Dirty Harry
 01 February 2013 10:36 PM
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rocknroll

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To work within the law there are two main ways in which householders who have bats roosting somewhere within their property can work within the law.

Avoid committing offences
It is always preferable to avoid disturbing bats or damaging their roosts if at all possible. That way no offence is likely to be committed and you help with the conservation of these threatened species.

Repairs, maintenance or refurbishment
If you want to carry out repairs, maintenance or refurbishment of your dwelling-house and believe this might affect the bats or their roost you are advised to consider how you can modify the way you carry out the work so as to avoid committing an offence. This may involve carrying out the work at a particular time of year or using particular materials or methods of working. You will need to take care that the access points used by the bats are not blocked and that their roosting areas are not damaged as this would be an offence even if it was not intentional. You are strongly recommended to contact your local Natural England office for free advice before you begin work. For minor works or maintenance, we will usually suggest that a local volunteer or member of staff visits you in order inspect the situation and advise on how best way to proceed without breaking the law. We will then confirm this advice in writing. If the work cannot be carried out without affecting the bats or their roost, you are likely to need a licence, there is, however, no guarantee that a licence will be granted.

I suspect under the terms of the planning applications this will already have been sorted and the solution agreed is the placement of lighting which is common, the bats will find alternative refuge and no doubt some will become hors d'oeuvres for the local owl population but 'they'll be back'.

I think he might mean pipistrelle

That is the most common species we have plenty down this neck of the woods.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------

Edited: 01 February 2013 at 10:57 PM by rocknroll
 01 February 2013 10:49 PM
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sparkingchip

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OMS has noted how I enjoy a good training course!

Here's one for you http://www.bats.org.uk/pages/b...ing_professionals.html
 01 February 2013 10:52 PM
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rocknroll

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Then you can put another sticker on your van like a 'Batman' logo on the bonnet. LOL

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 01 February 2013 11:15 PM
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Martynduerden

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Put some spare batteries in the neighbours garden

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 01 February 2013 11:17 PM
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Zs

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Thanks for the links Potential, and for yours R&R. Sweet little things aren't they?

I expect, because this is on National Trust Land that the client is acting on advice and all is being done properly. I also suspect a history but I don't know. Work is due to commence in April and I doubt that he'd be going to this expense for just a few weeks without advice. Curiously, google doesn't validate the light deterrent factor at all.

I met this man during the snowy weather when I got a call to a home with no power at all late in the evening. He had to come and meet me on a safe road half a mile from here and drive me to and fro. I was there with a bit of fuse wire and a spare RCD and fuse dog (a toy dog full of various fuses). The home is like a Little Red Riding Hood cottage deep in the woods. Quite lovely there. He had been removing the boarding from the garage roof so as to remove the garage loft space up into the pitched roof, on advice from a bat man. He had sawn through a socket cable and taken out his main fuse. There was quite a chunk out of the front end of an old wooden handled saw. Good old let-through current and bad old MEM rewirables. Fuse dog saved the day and UKPN were delighted not to have to come out.

I'll let you know if it works and in the meantime if you do have an idea of type of light that'd be grand.

Dinner dinner dinner dinner dinner dinner dinner dinner.....

Zs
 01 February 2013 11:23 PM
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John Peckham

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Am I the only one who can picture little bats lounging around a brightly lit loft wearing sun glasses with one saying to the other, " tough ***** for the polar bears Reg?

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John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 01 February 2013 11:42 PM
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sparkingchip

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 01 February 2013 11:48 PM
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peteTLM

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Originally posted by: sparkingchip

New scheme logo sticker


Andy you nutcase!

-------------------------
----------------------------------------
Lack of planning on your part doesn't make it an emergency on mine....

Every man has to know his limitations- Dirty Harry
 02 February 2013 11:41 AM
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rocknroll

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I'll let you know if it works and in the meantime if you do have an idea of type of light that'd be grand.


You dont need massive amounts of lighting to deter bats, if you had a bat problem in your loft a couple of 40/60W bulbs left on would eventually disperse them, the other method is a fan as they are very sensitive to changing air pressure, the secret is to identify the entry points and this can be done by looking for the droppings around the holes and light up these areas with standard lighting and they wont enter, there are other methods such as ultrasonic aids and non-lethal chemicals but then you start running into a sensitive area.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 02 February 2013 02:36 PM
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impvan

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I stopped counting the ones emerging from under me slates one evening when I got to 165, and the midges had found me. And this is on a new build!

They discovered the batten space in 2011 and by 2012 it was a maternity roost. Had to abandon the log shed because that's where the boy-bats moved to - kept bringing the little buggers into the house clinging to the firewood.
 02 February 2013 03:39 PM
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Legh

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with standard lighting and they wont enter,


Well, a few years ago, at about 11pm, the lights on, well in the room anyway, I was snoozing on the sofa with one eye open watching something insignificant on the TV when I experienced a whooooosh past my head.
I jumped up and thought I saw a bird fluttering about, but there was no noise, silent.
My first thought was wtf is that ? It turned sharp left and flew up the stairs, I followed it, of course, to see where it was going and we met half way up.
An amazing piece of acrobatics as it flew around me then vanished.
I haven't seen it since...........

Do you think I might need to notify someone?
Legh

-------------------------
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 03 February 2013 11:25 AM
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OMS

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It is legally possible to get a bat exclusion permission - but you need to go through real hoops to get it.

first up, I would get sight of the permission - word of mouth isn't good enough - get a copy and keep it - the fines etc for an illegal act are pretty appaling (and rightly so).

Next - understand the species and it's breeding habits - it's almost cetain that any exclusion or disturbamce will be prohibited during the breeding season - you risk isolatinmg flighless yound from the mothers - they starve to death.

Buy a few rolls of tin foil - cut into 2" strips and hand lengths about a yard long from rafters etc - it's reflective to thier "sonar" and causes confusion.

There is no gaurantee that light will deter a maternity colony - the mums will put up with all kinds of disturbance when nursing - no suprises there.

More generally, pipistrelles and similar will actually congregate round light sources as it attracts insects - ie it disrupts feeding patterns for wild colonies and also makes them vulnerable to avian predators - I've watched hawks on motorway CCTV systems taking bats on the wing which have been drawn to new or upgraded lighting sytstems

Lighting ideally wants to be something with a reasonable UV content - so mercury halide with polycarbonate (not glass) covers. Illuminance levels need to be high (internally) - use the foil in big patches in the attic to create as much rfelectance as you can.

Externally, again mercury halide - positioning is important in relation to entry/exit points.

Reducing the temperature in the voids also helps

Assuming you get a dispersal (and it's by no means certain, as your gooling will show) - then exclusion nets initially (unidirectional), followed by complete sealing is the next step.

I've only worked on two projects where interfering with the colony was permitted - and each of those was a 2 - 3 year exercise - so April this year may well be a non starter. I've worked on many more projects where major money or significant re design has been required - and some of those were significant projects totally redesigned around a single tree or small existing structure.

As always, be 100% certain that you are acting with appropriate authority - regardless of what your client says, if you disturb them, you are personally in the cart - so get copies of everything. The offence is of "reckless disturbance" - to the best of my knowledge, "development" is not an activity that can attract a license to disturb (in the case of bats) with the possible exception of being in a "habitable" area - just because the client intends to make the existing loft part of a habitable room won't usually justify it.

take care !!

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 03 February 2013 11:36 AM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: sparkingchip

OMS has noted how I enjoy a good training course!

Here's one for you http://www.bats.org.uk/pages/b...ing_professionals.html


Indeed- on more than one project, we've shelled out to get somone on such a course and they then become the DT lead on "bat" related issues, taking charge of all relevant aspects of design that influences bats.

Doing it right is more important than doing it easy.

regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 03 February 2013 12:05 PM
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sparkyaj

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Just an outline of what you could be looking at. I have not long completed a small farm house renovation. Customer has spent a fortune complying with all of these regs and since had to spend £20k to re house 1 x bat. on the day that the bat was moved by the pro's it fleew back to its own roost. After another three trys, the bat was found the following morning nearly dead on the floor. Given that you are breaking so many laws with these following points, not the bat has died, the departments that enforce the laws now do not want to know.

A. Executive Summary
B. Introduction
B.1 Background to activity/ development
B.2 Full details of proposed works on site that are to be covered by the licence

C. Survey and site assessment
C.1 Pre-existing information on species at survey site
C.2 Status of species in the local/regional levels
C.3 Objectives of survey
C.4 Scaled plan/map of survey area
C.5 Site/habitat description
C.6 Field survey(s)
C.7 Survey results
C.8 Interpretation and evaluation

D. Impact assessment in absence of mitigation.
D.1 Short term impacts: disturbance
D.2 Long term impacts: roost modification
D.3 Long term impacts: roost loss
D.4 Long term impacts: fragmentation and isolation
D.5 Post development interference impacts
D.6 Predicted scale of impact

E. References

F. Annexes
F.1 Pre-existing Survey Reports
F.2 Raw Survey Data
 03 February 2013 12:23 PM
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potential

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Originally posted by: OMS.......................

Lighting ideally wants to be something with a reasonable UV content - so mercury halide with polycarbonate (not glass) covers. Illuminance levels need to be high (internally) - use the foil in big patches in the attic to create as much rfelectance as you can.

Externally, again mercury halide - positioning is important in relation to entry/exit points.


OMS


That is the best method I know of collecting every flying insect in the area.
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