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Topic Title: Letter from ECA
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Created On: 17 November 2012 06:03 PM
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 19 November 2012 09:58 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 5900
Joined: 18 January 2003

Regards Emma's message "I know very little about the NAPIT website , and we share their objective of promoting competent people and are happy to explore other partnerships. However, any future partner needs to support the charity and trade association and be prepared to meet the assessment standard we set. "

I thought the NICEIC is a consumer organisation that allows electricians onto its register, not a trade association. Have I missed something?

Andy
 19 November 2012 10:05 PM
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Zoro

Posts: 130
Joined: 31 July 2011

Originally posted by: rocknroll

The HSE have already commented on this issue, the cost and bureaucracy of an identical scheme could not justified in terms of benefits, with gas installation failures there are much more wider risk of explosions, fires and multiple fatalities which is rarely the case with electrical faults, the present problems with GSR and the issues of people operating outside of the regulatory system because of cost will only escalate further if electricity was regulated.

regards


Come on that is just turf wars, DCLG Buildings Division just trying to hang on a bit longer to the Electrical Schemes.

Members of Schemes put in over £20 million a year, a Gasafe system woul be far cheaper and regulation could be reduced.
 19 November 2012 10:15 PM
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rocknroll

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I can reveal the actual cost of the 'type of scheme' that your representatives have requested and it was £53 million of which you would be required to bear most of the cost.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 19 November 2012 10:19 PM
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Zoro

Posts: 130
Joined: 31 July 2011

So who did the costings and what was the structure, or is this just more propaganda.

Why not publish it, or is it a secret?

So your figure of £53M based on current membership, is exactley £1000 a head, is that how the figures were derived?

So where does the extra cost come from, per member?

Edited: 19 November 2012 at 10:30 PM by Zoro
 19 November 2012 10:51 PM
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Martynduerden

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RnR's comment earlier regarding the cost of membership is ver enlighting, gas safe costs £186 / year because engineers have to pay out for training ..... Just what exactly has that got to do with the cost of membership ...

There is no reason for the £450/year other than the can get away with charging it.

Gas safe does not cost anything like the figures quoted by rnr I know - I'm registered.

Emma and associated cronies seem to be trying to corner the industry, I had a chat with the ECA today at regional level none of whom knew a damn thing about this before we did, saying, it was a central decision for which appear toy secret talks have been going on for two years.

NAPIT have the right idea and have rattled the cages of the rest, though I do wonder how many of the members of other schemes will register on NAPIT's elec safe register.

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 19 November 2012 11:23 PM
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Martynduerden

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Rnr my NAPIT assessment was also a ukas assessment and cost no more than the standard - non ukas version .... Am I missing something here?

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 19 November 2012 11:41 PM
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rocknroll

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This is an issue that was started in 2009 in relation to the calls by your schemes for mandatory licencing/registration and scheme and individual UKAS accreditation and concluded with a consultation document in 2012 which covered both the schemes and its members in relation to any UKAS arrangement, the document mainly relates to your schemes and thats why I highlighted the information that was relevant to you and it is still bubbling away.

The present arrangements with the schemes and UKAS are a different system at the present.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------

Edited: 20 November 2012 at 12:17 AM by rocknroll
 20 November 2012 10:16 AM
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Zoro

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So why have you raised UKAS RnR? Gasafe is not UKAS, you are deliberately avoiding the question.

Why is an Electrical Scheme, based around Gasafe going to cost £53M a year this is just blatant Propaganda, where is this document you are quoting from, you are misleading this forum.

CAPITA runs Gasafe on £15M a year, fact they bid that amount.

You haven't a clue what you are talking about,
"Probably around £2k a year to operate as a domestic electrician, any involvement in a professional body where UKAS is involved is expensive, Building Inspectors can pay £5k over five years on top of their body's fees."

You are just making this up.

Mmmmm....

So why did you just take the post down RnR?

Have a check on some of your other posts on this subject, you may want to delete some of those.
 20 November 2012 05:06 PM
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jcm256

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Joined: 01 April 2006

More news, NAPIT and NICEIC seek to help LABC



http://www.napit.org.uk/newsStory.asp?id=40





Below is the cost of CPS.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/8405/2157372.pdf

Edited: 21 November 2012 at 08:50 AM by jcm256
 20 November 2012 05:40 PM
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rocknroll

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So why have you raised UKAS RnR? Gasafe is not UKAS, you are deliberately avoiding the question.


OK lets go through it again, you cannot use the GSR model for electricity it just does not work, the Gas Act only relates to the gas connection everything else comes under the Building Regulations, anybody can fit a boiler, gas fire, cooker etc, but the connection to mains gas requires a member of the GSR who is deemed competent for this purpose.

You could say you already have this in force, anybody can do the electrical work but only the DNO under the Electricity Act can make the connection to the service.

OK so far,

The GSR has;
A mandatory Act, The Gas Act
A enforceable inspectorate, the HSE who can fine you, suspend you or remove you from the register.

If you want to go down the 'mandatory registration' route then firstly you will require a 'mandatory' set of enforceable specific rules for the design and construction of electrical installations and then you will require a 'mandatory' enforceable inspectorate and this will be tasked to UKAS, if you think this is not going to cost you anymore than what you pay now think again, in 2007 the average cost where similar mandatory schemes were in operation was around £1200 a year for a contractor.

UKAS have estimated a mandatory scheme for electricians will cost around £53m.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 20 November 2012 07:10 PM
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napitprofessional

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Originally posted by: sparkingchip

Regards Emma's message "I know very little about the NAPIT website , and we share their objective of promoting competent people and are happy to explore other partnerships. However, any future partner needs to support the charity and trade association and be prepared to meet the assessment standard we set. "



I thought the NICEIC is a consumer organisation that allows electricians onto its register, not a trade association. Have I missed something?



Andy


Even less than she appears to know about the trade - and that`s saying something ....
 21 November 2012 03:10 PM
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Zoro

Posts: 130
Joined: 31 July 2011

Originally posted by: rocknroll

So why have you raised UKAS RnR? Gasafe is not UKAS, you are deliberately avoiding the question.


OK lets go through it again, you cannot use the GSR model for electricity it just does not work, the Gas Act only relates to the gas connection everything else comes under the Building Regulations, anybody can fit a boiler, gas fire, cooker etc, but the connection to mains gas requires a member of the GSR who is deemed competent for this purpose.

You could say you already have this in force, anybody can do the electrical work but only the DNO under the Electricity Act can make the connection to the service.

OK so far,

The GSR has;

A mandatory Act, The Gas Act

A enforceable inspectorate, the HSE who can fine you, suspend you or remove you from the register.

If you want to go down the 'mandatory registration' route then firstly you will require a 'mandatory' set of enforceable specific rules for the design and construction of electrical installations and then you will require a 'mandatory' enforceable inspectorate and this will be tasked to UKAS, if you think this is not going to cost you anymore than what you pay now think again, in 2007 the average cost where similar mandatory schemes were in operation was around £1200 a year for a contractor.

UKAS have estimated a mandatory scheme for electricians will cost around £53m.
regards


RnR I said a Gasafe Style system, I was talking of having a Scheme run by a professional organisation for Contractors and Electricians for a change. Capita do it for £15M a year, there again they don't have to provide are large political structure to play games like the current Schemes.

Mandatory membership is not necessary, that is what the existing Schemes have been asking vainly for it over the last few months.

As for a UKAS estimate for running a mandatory Scheme of £53M, If you multiply the total Scheme membership by £1000 that is exactly the figure you get, did they charge for their estimate?

They are not equipped for the task £1000 a day + expenses +VAT, why would anyone ask for such a thing unless they wanted a reason for not doing it.

I am not sure who decided to ask UKAS, but that may give you a clue as to who does NOT want a Gasafe Style system.


Do you think that such a Scheme would benefit our Industry, or do you think that the present Schemes provide a service, "That is beneficial to Our Trade" ?
 21 November 2012 03:40 PM
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rocknroll

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Before I answer your question first let me ask you one, which is valid as this has been stated in many a meeting where your stakeholders have been present.

According to them (who I presume represent you) 90% of their members want a Registration/Licencing scheme for those who work on domestic electrics and it should be made illegal for someone who is not to do so in this high risk area, is this correct. ????

Point 1, to make something illegal there has to be a law!!!

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 21 November 2012 04:01 PM
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Legh

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Originally posted by: napitprofessional

Originally posted by: sparkingchip

Regards Emma's message "I know very little about the NAPIT website, and we share their objective of promoting competent people and are happy to explore other partnerships. However, any future partner needs to support the charity and trade association and be prepared to meet the assessment standard we set. "

I thought the NICEIC is a consumer organisation that allows electricians onto its register, not a trade association. Have I missed something?

Andy


Even less than she appears to know about the trade - and that`s saying something ....


Lol, It should be a walk in the park for all the NAPIT guys, since they have cornered the market in the 2391 stakes and will be immediately eligible for QS status.......

Will there be enough room one wonders



Legh

repeat a thousand times 'do not wind up the natives'

-------------------------
Why do we need Vernier Calipers when we have container ships?

http://www.leghrichardson.co.uk

"Science has overcome time and space. Well, Harvey has overcome not only time and space - but any objections."
 21 November 2012 09:47 PM
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whjohnson

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Time for some pragmatism methinks -

If the scam operators weren't viciously fighting each other before, they are at each other's throats now, and in deadly earnest.

The income from the Part P gravy train has withered from some 126,000 eligible contractors back in 2006 to around 36,000 now, and the numbers are dwindling weekly due to the recession. Companies & one-man-bands are either going out of business, or are cutting back on 'non-essentials' such as scam membership fees.
The scam providers have now tried a new guise to unite in order to gain what little there is left over, at least each shark gets a bite, albeit smaller if it works out.
Personally, my belief is that the present economic circumstances have made this outcome inevitable - there just isn't enough 'gravy' to go round any longer.

The Govt of course, believes it is all a self-interested storm in a teacup, and wants (rightly) as little to do with the whole thing as possible - they have their own (much larger and more pressing) problems to solve, rather than having to listen to endless lobbying from whining self-interest groups such as the ECA/ESC et al.
No money for the LABCs, no enforcement - they can't afford it.
Scam providers? the Govt's advice seems to be 'If there's a market, go and find it, but don't involve us'.

Personally, I don't give a funky's Muck and am carrying on as normal.
They can put as many registers as they like up there but I for one, will never pay to join one. There's enough work out there to avoid doing so, and if you have to do Part P stuff, then there's not a lot to stop you so long as you comply with the wiring regs and do the paperwork.

Never forget - it is the installation owner's responsibility to notify - NOT YOURS.

Now, Why should I be concerned about not notifying an emergency call-out to repair a faulty kitchen or bathroom light which is knocking off the rest of the house lighting cct?

Customer response: 'Special Location?' Part P'? I as a customer have to notify your repairs and it'll cost me upwards of £250?'

No chance!

And THAT, is the harsh reality. THAT is how it is, and how it shall remain IMO

-------------------------
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
 22 November 2012 10:30 PM
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Zs

Posts: 2847
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WHJ, I know some very fine electricians who share your views.

Truth is, I don't know what mine are and I allow myself to neglect the consideration. I'm not sure I care about registration but registered because it is part of the process, in a kind of god-fearing way. It was always my intention to move around the governing bodies but I stuck at NAPIT purely because of the team spirit we have. It suits me and their forum is friendly, though not as active as this one. Like many, I stick within a comfort zone. I have mates in NAPIT, we look out for each other.

Second truth is that I too should not give a Funkey Monkey about this because business is brisk, my clients loyal and development happening from within all that. Moreso, I do not feature on either of these sites. You all remember the horrors of the stalker. NAPIT are kind to me about that.

But I do care and I do give a Monkeys. I suppose there will be blood on the carpet again before too long but it becomes difficult to offer respect to organisations involved in such a public slanging match.

Not for profit v Charitable? What charities? What not for profit? is that a provident set-up? Are we about to be bamboozled into loyalty to those who do the best 'good works'? This is about customer confidence isn't it?

Meanwhile, Steetkidsdirect.org I turn up and actually do stuff for them. Proper given time, proper given costs. Manuelito Childrens' Home in Honduras has some of my wiring. Centro Integral Orphanage in Honduras has a great deal more, Chiltern Youth Project has a whole heap, and four other national charities have a monthly standing order from me. I know plenty of you who do similar.

So, I hope we don't get drawn into a campaign about who may stand the proudest, because I think it is some of us. I hope Big Red is looking in, you would be amazed and humbled at what that man does for others. I note a tone of 'goodness' coming through in the battle and I think it inappropriate. This is supposed to be about electrical safety. Right now it is verging on who is the finest. Carefully veiled battle for monopoly?

If Certsure do not know about ElectricSafe and vice versa, I think maybe they should meet and find out about each other. It is a shame that those who are on the receiving end of such schemes are about to encounter yet more confusion and stumbling around. Remember when the Church of England thought that NIC was the only governing body? It took ages for letters to be issued from parliament and instructions to be sent out to the individual parochial church councils. Lots of very decent Men were viewed with suspicion, and treated as incompetent simply because their registration body was not the NIC.

You up for a coffee Emma? I can make it to Berko.

Zs
 22 November 2012 11:32 PM
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John Peckham

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I note with interest that the IET has played no part in this unbelievable spectacle of self interest. If you want an organisation that rises above all the rest than the IET is for you.

I wonder if the Professional Electrician magazine could produce some critical analysis in their next issue on the subject. Have you noticed that all the electrical publications are thinly disguised catalogues of advertisers products?

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 23 November 2012 12:31 AM
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rocknroll

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Well considering the membership figures are one of the lowest they have ever been why dont one of you create a free 'Non-Registered Electric Safe' register, it would be four times bigger than the other two put together so you would grab all the advertising.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 23 November 2012 12:39 AM
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sparkingchip

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I only registered to go with the flow, it doesn't make people better electricians being registered, only indicates that you have reached a certain standard. however eight years ago when I was getting set up for part p NAPIT became the obvious choice.

Back on the 1st January 2005, the day that part P came into force, the Electrical safety council did not exist as such, it was the NICEIC.

The Electrical Safety Council (ESC) was established as a separate entity from the NICEIC on the 30th September 2005.

Now I was told at that time it was due to pressure from the charity commissioners and the tax man that the NICEIC was split to form the ESC, because the NICEIC was claiming charity status which brought certain benefits such as VAT exemption, this was deemed unacceptable so the "charity" was split from the trading to form separate companies. Incidentally our local youth club had to do exactly the same thing to separate their non-charitable business operations from what can be deemed to be true charitable activities.

So when I first registered for part P the ESC was the NICEIC and as far as I am concerned it always will be, therefore part of a commercial organisation of whom I can be a customer so long as I pay therefore I don't feel any obligation to support its activities as an electrician on a charitable basis, I may on certain matters if I feel it is appropriate, but my loyalty lies with NAPIT as it has done for the last eight years. NAPIT may claim to be many things, but never a charity as far as I know.

So this attempt to exclude me from what was apparently going to be a register open to all scheme members as a joint enterprise following "Round tables" meetings doesn't go down well with me and I hope that "charity money" is not being used to promote this blatantly commercial exercise. It also put any possible impartiality of the ESC in doubt as the find an Electrician feature now takes you to the new register, though if you carry on you may find the full list of scheme operators and a link to the competent person website

Andy
 23 November 2012 12:45 AM
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sparkingchip

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Joined: 18 January 2003

That's not quite right is it? The NICEIC became the ESC and a new trading company was set up, different but basically the same.
IET » Wiring and the regulations » Letter from ECA

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