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Topic Title: NEW QS REQUIREMENTS
Topic Summary: REVISED EAS DOCUMENT
Created On: 09 November 2012 10:16 PM
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 16 November 2012 05:32 PM
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BigRed

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mores to the point, ifIsomeone was to class themselves as a sparks, they would have covered this in their training, and ok, it may take a quick look at a book, but nor be an onerous task. Funny enough, the job on my desk at the moment is just that, with a requirement for indications for its state ie star or delta.
Half the sparks over the last ten years wouldn't know what this was if it leapt up and bit them in the a**!
Did we all have to retake our o levels when GCSE came out? NO.
did the fact that the dumbed down 236 2360 so badly that we have sparks coming out who don't even know how to do basic tests and think that the only cable in existance is twin and earth and flex, YES
do I have to prove my working knowledge again to some T*at who is only interested in lining their own pocket by saying that our knowledge now counts for nothing, because, in a nutshell, this is what this says? NO
Does my 2391 count for nothing anymore? Got to be said, even after a level, it was a bloody hard exam, the time constraints were tough. Is doing an NVQ3 going to make me any better a sparks than I am already? probably not......
I've bloody earnt my grandfather rights!
 16 November 2012 10:20 PM
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zeeper

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I'm not sure why you have a bee in your bonnet over this Zeeps


No bonnet bee, A light hearted discussion in motion. I'm probably one of the most respectful persons when it come to wisdom from the oldies.

- you must realise that you simply cannot bin previous qualifications and the people who obtained them just because a bit of tinkering with the system.

I agree completely with you I am one of the 2360 gang myself. However the scams were letting unqualified persons join and now they are giving them grandfathers rights.

I don't need them for my day job, but if you are suggesting that older C&G exams and an indentured apprenticeship coupled with further experiential learning doesn't make for competent people then I think you've lost the plot.


No not suggesting that, plot not lost.

To blame declining standards on people who are for the most part technically more qualified than the current crop seems a bit silly, don't you think.



There is no way you could know this, unless you have some sort of crystal ball.
I wonder if the grandfathers grandfathers were better sparkies than the grandfathers. Or maybe if we go back far enough the grandfathers grandfathers grandfathers grandfathers were all knowing superdupa sparkies, who could wire star delta with thier hands tried behind thier backs, inverted in a giant glass cube filled with olive oil.

When you look at it like that you realise how silly the idea is. We dont get thicker as the generations pass.


Irrespective of the student's ability you should have demonstrated the test and method and then asked them to do it, you have fallen into my 'bad teacher' trap again, using a student to demonstrate something negative and in so doing making him/her feel singled out and self conscious proves my point again, there is no such thing as bad students only bad teachers.


So true


did the fact that the dumbed down 236 2360 so badly that we have sparks coming out who don't even know how to do basic tests


2360 part 2 course content


1 Magnetism... 2 transformers... 3 Meters... 4 DC Machines...
5 Ac Theory one... 6 AC theory two

7 AC Theory polyphase... 8 AC Machines...

9 Methods for Starting and Protecting Three Phase Motors...
0 ELECTROSTATICS ONE...

1 ELECTROSTATICS TWO... 2 ILLUMINATION 1...
3 ILLUMINATION 2... 4 SELECTING CABLES...

5 INSTALLATION AND COMMISSIONING ONE... 6 INSTALLATION AND COMMISSIONING TWO...

7 QUALITY ASSURANCE FOR ELECTRICAL INSTALLATIONS (Part I)...
8 QUALITY ASSURANCE FOR ELECTRICAL INSTALLATIONS (Part II)
9 FAULT DIAGNOSIS AND RECTIFICATION... 50 INSTALLATION COMMISSIONING AND TESTING...

So yeah we covered poly phase motors on the 2360, and star delta still has is use, but no good if you need the variable speed control.

I've bloody earnt my grandfather rights!


chip, thats my point we haven't earnt anything.
 16 November 2012 10:55 PM
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kj scott

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Originally posted by: rocknroll

Originally posted by: John Peckham

It is interesting that I have had students with 2330, AM2 and NVQ3 come on my 2391 courses who don't know their amp from their elbow about inspection and testing. I once gave such a qualified student a loop tester and told him to test all the sockets in the workshop and tell me which one had the highest Zs, he could not do it and did not even have a clue how to start.


Irrespective of the student's ability you should have demonstrated the test and method and then asked them to do it, you have fallen into my 'bad teacher' trap again, using a student to demonstrate something negative and in so doing making him/her feel singled out and self conscious proves my point again, there is no such thing as bad students only bad teachers.

regards


It was the intention that 2391 the candidates already had inspection and testing knowledge, as such they should be able to undertake and evaluate a loop impedance test value, after all 'its not rocket science' as you have repeatedly said RnR.
So what is wrong the teacher/trainer or the course?
I pose this to RnR.
Personally I believe both fail.

-------------------------
http://www.niceic.biz
 16 November 2012 10:59 PM
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kj scott

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Originally posted by: rocknroll

Originally posted by: BigRed



well a quick way of sorting out the good from the bad, get them to wire a star delta starter from scratch....and no, it's not called an inverter...




LOL How many tutors would be able to do that, count them on one hand I guess.



Anyway you have to teach them how to do it first, then ask them to do it, no good throwing a few handouts around and say do this., my point!!



regards


Star delta starter, any one who is in the trade can do that in their sleep, how about a real test, an' make it reem.

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 16 November 2012 11:17 PM
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kj scott

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Originally posted by: zeeper

I wonder if the grandfathers grandfathers were better sparkies than the grandfathers. Or maybe if we go back far enough the grandfathers grandfathers grandfathers grandfathers were all knowing superdupa sparkies, who could wire star delta with thier hands tried behind thier backs, inverted in a giant glass cube filled with olive oil.

So we should discount Faraday, Voltaire, Ohm, Gilbert, et al?

When you look at it like that you realise how silly the idea is. We dont get thicker as the generations pass.

But standards have been dumbed down perchance?

Irrespective of the student's ability you should have demonstrated the test and method and then asked them to do it, you have fallen into my 'bad teacher' trap again, using a student to demonstrate something negative and in so doing making him/her feel singled out and self conscious proves my point again, there is no such thing as bad students only bad teachers.


Perhaps he/she knew it all and needed positioning?

So true





did the fact that the dumbed down 236 2360 so badly that we have sparks coming out who don't even know how to do basic tests


I think that if you assess the trainers you will find that they do not know how to perform the basic tests.

2360 part 2 course content





1 Magnetism... 2 transformers... 3 Meters... 4 DC Machines...

5 Ac Theory one... 6 AC theory two



7 AC Theory polyphase... 8 AC Machines...



9 Methods for Starting and Protecting Three Phase Motors...

0 ELECTROSTATICS ONE...



1 ELECTROSTATICS TWO... 2 ILLUMINATION 1...

3 ILLUMINATION 2... 4 SELECTING CABLES...



5 INSTALLATION AND COMMISSIONING ONE... 6 INSTALLATION AND COMMISSIONING TWO...



7 QUALITY ASSURANCE FOR ELECTRICAL INSTALLATIONS (Part I)...

8 QUALITY ASSURANCE FOR ELECTRICAL INSTALLATIONS (Part II)

9 FAULT DIAGNOSIS AND RECTIFICATION... 50 INSTALLATION COMMISSIONING AND TESTING...



So yeah we covered poly phase motors on the 2360, and star delta still has is use, but no good if you need the variable speed control.

So you know the course content, but did you learn or understand it?

I've bloody earnt my grandfather rights!


chip, thats my point we haven't earnt anything.


If you have established status; should you not retain it. If not who is competent to assess you for your continued registration?

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 17 November 2012 08:35 AM
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ebee

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Am I correct in thinking that both the Regs exam (2380/1) AND the I & T exam (2391/2) was to be the minimum entry when Part P was being set up but the I & T exam was dropped as a requirement shortly before the start date because too many not passed?

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 17 November 2012 04:22 PM
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zeeper

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So you know the course content, but did you learn or understand it?


I did, trouble is you don't use it all every day. So fortunately I have my books course notes and wiki

Thats why it makes me laugh when people crack on about how they are a better sparkie just because they have done an inspection and testing course and the regs, please get a grip. There was no multi guess on the 2360 part 2, 4.5hours of written exams.

Someone one who has passed a formal electrical installation course.Is going to have a better foundation of knowledge than one of these inspection and testing qualified persons. I don't suppose they would know their VA form Their VAR from there watts or how to correct a lagging current. But the can do a earth loop test whoopee.
 17 November 2012 05:13 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: zeeper


2356+2394+2395 or 2357 + 2395 = AC


Thanks for the reply, though does AC mean approved contractor?

Any chance your above formula be transposed to explain if 2360+2391+existingNVQ3 ≤ New NVQ3
 17 November 2012 10:43 PM
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zeeper

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Any chance your above formula be transposed to explain if 2360+2391+existingNVQ3 ≤ New NVQ3


You would hope so, but I dont know sorry.
 18 November 2012 04:27 AM
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MrOther

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Originally posted by: John Peckham
replaced with some spotty faced youth who has not started shaving yet, no experience but has an NVQ with the ink not quite dry.


John, is this not slightly ingenerous on your part?
 18 November 2012 10:11 AM
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John Peckham

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No not at all. A mate of mine is a very experienced electrician with qualifications up to 2391. He has an apprentice just out of his time who he trained. The lad has an NVQ3 so has a JIB Gold card. My mate does not have an NVQ3 so is graded labourer by the JIB. I know other very competent sparks who are graded labourer by the JIB.

C&G 236 or 2360 or 2330+ 2382 + 2391 or 2394 + experience = electrician. I don't have an installation (236-2330) qualification so I would not qualify as a sparks but I could if necessary do the job to a good standard.

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John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 18 November 2012 03:25 PM
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MrOther

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Originally posted by: John Peckham

No not at all. A mate of mine is a very experienced electrician with qualifications up to 2391. He has an apprentice just out of his time who he trained. The lad has an NVQ3 so has a JIB Gold card. My mate does not have an NVQ3 so is graded labourer by the JIB. I know other very competent sparks who are graded labourer by the JIB.



C&G 236 or 2360 or 2330+ 2382 + 2391 or 2394 + experience = electrician. I don't have an installation (236-2330) qualification so I would not qualify as a sparks but I could if necessary do the job to a good standard.


Then they should get grandfather rights. Is this not the case? I thought the JIB has a criteria for "Conditional" Sparks -- i.e. time-served Sparks without qualifications and tickets.

(I think this whole card thing is nonsense, because we all know it doesn't prove competency. The whole "competency" embargo is the best thing for the claim courts, it'll keep them in business well into the end of the universe.)

But what I was infering to you was that you break bones about the "spotty youngster" but don't you, yourself make some of your bread and butter by training those spotty youngsters? Not to knock a man how he makes a living, because I'm one of those people who is recently trained and I'm indebted to trainees like you, but you can't burn the candle at both ends without burning your fingers at some point?
 18 November 2012 03:28 PM
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MrOther

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I mean it'll all change soon anyway, it won't be long to we all go to the US System. T Clarkes et al, though failed, still harbour ambitions usurp the JIB. So the whole industry will become that bit more narrower soon anyway, me thinks.
 19 November 2012 05:35 PM
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BigRed

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Quote:" No not at all. A mate of mine is a very experienced electrician with qualifications up to 2391. He has an apprentice just out of his time who he trained. The lad has an NVQ3 so has a JIB Gold card. My mate does not have an NVQ3 so is graded labourer by the JIB. I know other very competent sparks who are graded labourer by the JIB."
So So true.
How long does this have to go on for? If you are not in a club, or don't qualify because the monkey card says you are not qualified to be approved, you get paid less than the young spotty yoof who has come straight from college without a spec of dust in his tool bag? This is the reality of the situation, and it stinks. A sparky's training doesn't finish once they have the NVQ3 or CandG exams, it's only starting. And who trains them? the 20 year timed served sparks......
25mm H07 5 core makes a loverly cosh at about a foot long.......
 20 November 2012 08:52 AM
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zeeper

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25mm H07 5 core makes a loverly cosh at about a foot long


You appear to be living in the wrong decade.
 20 November 2012 12:00 PM
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BigRed

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And how have you come to that conclusion Zeeps?
or are you suggesting it should be 16mm as this is an age of austerity....:-)
IET » Wiring and the regulations » NEW QS REQUIREMENTS

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