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Topic Title: Past papers and other copyright material
Topic Summary: Please do not post copyright material
Created On: 29 October 2010 03:59 PM
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 29 October 2010 03:59 PM
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rossall

Posts: 1048
Joined: 06 August 2001

May I draw the attention of forum participants to the Conditions of Use, which forbid the posting of copyright material. Past examination papers and related documents will normally fall into this category.

Please do not use these forums to post links to such material, or to exchange offers to breach copyright by distributing them.

We will have no alternative but to ban users who repeatedly breach this condition.

Please report instances to the moderator.

Regards

-------------------------
David Rossall
The Institution of Engineering and Technology

Edited: 17 February 2013 at 05:02 PM by rossall
 29 October 2010 04:17 PM
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spinlondon

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Joined: 10 December 2004

I was under the impression that the Copyright, Designs and Patents act, 1988 allowed the copying and distribution of copyrighted materials for the purpose of reaserch, private study criticism and review?
That this was confirmed at both the 2003 Berne and Universal Copyright Conventions?
Could you please check?
 29 October 2010 06:20 PM
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rossall

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Hi spinlondon

The usual disclaimer here is IANAL

However, some broad comments. Please seek professional advice if you think it necessary.

Copyright applies automatically to any work that requires original creative effort. For examination papers, there are two aspects:
  • Papers will often quote from copyright works (for example, an English examination might ask students to comment on a passage from a recent novel). The examination board is allowed to quote the passage, copyright notwithstanding, but the examination paper cannot be distributed freely afterwards. (Scroll down to "Examinations" in the link.)
  • More immediately for us, examination papers themselves count as literary works (paragraph 5), because writing them requires original creative effort.

The kinds of "fair dealing" exception to which you refer are intended to allow individual students (or reviewers) to take copies of limited parts of the works that they are studying. They do not allow the distribution of such copies among students. Teachers generally have to be very careful to avoid falling foul of this kind of limitation. Again, IANAL, but I do not understand them as allowing distribution of examination papers themselves.

As above, copyright exists whether or not copyright owners assert it, but as far as I can see City & Guilds do, for example in this PDF (page 5), and there were large copyright statements on every page of the non-C&G material that triggered this thread. C&G also have a general copyright statement on their site.

Hope this helps.

-------------------------
David Rossall
The Institution of Engineering and Technology
 29 October 2010 09:06 PM
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spinlondon

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I think you may have misinterpreted the term 'fair dealing'.
The term refers to the use of copywritten material for reasearch and private study (private meaning non-commercial), or criricism or review.
Teachers in establishments where students have to pay a fee to take a course, have to be careful because their actions can be viewed as commercial. This is why the C&G issued their general copyright statement.
However the permission granted in the general copyright statement does not prevent other non-commercial establishments or individuals from exercising their rights under the 'fair dealing' exception.
I understand that it is the IET's vaunted vision to share and advance knowledge throughout the global science, engineering and technology cominities to enhance people's lives around the world.
I would argue that preventing the dissemination of material under the 'fair dealing' exception without due cause, to be at odds with the vision of the IET.
I would suggest that you consider taking advice on the matter.
 29 October 2010 10:04 PM
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ant1uk

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Spin I think David is talking about distribution of such information which he is correct can only be done with permission from the owner.

Regards
 30 October 2010 12:19 AM
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spinlondon

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Originally posted by: ant1uk
Spin I think David is talking about distribution of such information which he is correct can only be done with permission from the owner.

Regards


I am aware of what David is talking about.
I am just pointing out to him and now you, that dependant on what use the material is intended for, there is an exception allowing the copying and dissemination of copyritten material.
 30 October 2010 07:39 PM
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tombazzer

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Spinlondon
The rules on copyright are quite clear, you may not copy the works of others and publish or distribute them without the owners permission, and however you try to try to make an argument that the individal is permitted to make copies for private study, or research this most certainly does not extend to deliberately distributing or publishing the works of others.

I would draw anyone who is interested in this thread to

http://www.copyrightservice.co...ht/p27_work_of_others

Here it clearly states

What is fair dealing?
Fair dealing is a term used to describe some limited activities that are allowed without infringing copyright. Briefly these are as follows:

Research and private study
Copying parts of a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work or of a typographical arrangement of a published edition for the purpose of research or private study is allowed under the following conditions:

The copy is made for the purposes of research or private study.
The copy is made for non-commercial purposes.
The source of the material is acknowledged.
The person making the copy does not make copies of the material available for a number of people.

Clearly this refers to only making a copy of 'parts' of a piece of work, e.g the use of the word 'Limited' and NOT a fully copy, also it clearly states - The person making the copy does not make copies of the material available for a number of people.

So I end my crack at this thread - David Rossall is absolutely bang on with his view, and I fully endorse his stand against allowing the IET forum to be abused by copyright theft.

If people could get away with publishing / distributing the hard work(s) of other authors then soon there would be no books, journals etc as what would be the point of the author spending his/her time writing just to see it getting ripped off by unscrupulous individuals

Tom Bazzer
 31 October 2010 12:43 AM
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spinlondon

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As I understand it, the work in question is not literary, dramatic, artistic or a typographical arrangement, so I am not certain that this particular clause is applicable.
However, as far as I'm aware, the copies are being made available for the purpose of private study, for non-commercial purposes, the source of the material is aknowledged and the person making the copy is not making copies for other people.

You have quoted from the document, (is this a breach of copyright?), then gone on to state:
"Clearly this refers to only making a copy of 'parts' of a piece of work, e.g the use of the word 'Limited' and NOT a fully copy." perhaps you could re-read what you have posted and point this out, because I cannot see it.

In the document you have posted a link for, there is mention that: "the material quoted is no more than is necessary for the purpose."
However, that refers to material quoted for critcism and review, and for news reporting.

I'm sorry, but your last paragraph is both spurious and irrelevant.
People get away with publishing and distributing the hard works of authors all the time. Authors spend a great deal of time searching for people who are willing to do such.
This is not a matter of people reproducing works that are or have been on sale, and ripping off the authors. This is clearly just someone providing a means for individuals to make copies of material for the intention of private study.
As such, it is not infringing upon any copyright, and is clearly in accordance with the terms for 'fair dealing'.

To be honest with you, I am suprised that this post was posted in the first place.
The IET is itself a publisher, and there should be people available to David who can give him advice on this matter.
I can only assume that he did not avail himself of such advice, or that the advice he has been given is very poor.
 31 October 2010 10:39 PM
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simongallagher

Posts: 148
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Am I missing something simple here?

If you post something on a message board, the are you not making it available to other people, which is not allowed?

If you make a copy for study, then fine. If you then stick it on a message board, then you are making it available to 'a number of people'. A very large number of people!

From Staffordshire University:

'The copy must not be re-published, posted on a web page, edited, multicopied or dealt with in any other way'.



Regards,

Simon
 01 November 2010 11:20 AM
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rossall

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Setting aside for the moment any discussion on points of law, I must re-iterate that the IET will not, under the conditions of use for these forums, permit the posting of copyright material.

That said:

spinlondon, you have asked me to take advice, but my posting consisted of links to just such advice. In particular, you question whether an examination paper is a literary work, but I have already posted a link that states just that.

"Fair dealing" is about private study, not distribution to fellow-students; most universities' sites have advice for their students on copyright including this. Like simongallagher, I found Staffordshire's helpful; note the caution in the fair dealing section.

I was interested to note that even the Bar Council has advice for its members on this topic, and tells them (point 4.4) not to post material on chambers Web sites (for their colleagues to access).

-------------------------
David Rossall
The Institution of Engineering and Technology
 04 November 2010 09:49 PM
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kj scott

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Rossall; whilst I can recognise the need for the IET position; you may yourself be in breach of C&G copyright, unless of course you have permission to publish a link to the exams regulations.Of course I am sure that the C&G will grant such permission to the IET, if they have not already.
The restriction of the free exchange of information between students and researchers would create a situation where only those privilaged enough to be be able to afford all publications would progress; thus potentially losing greater knowledge. In short the erosion of education. Who has not been given copies of publications during training, beyond the permissions of copyright.
This I feel is contrary to the principals of the IET, as a learned society, and a situation to which steps should be made to resolve.
Could I suggest as a start, free electronic access, for members, to all IET publications, including BS 7671. All BSI documents are available to view, free of charge , from local libraries, with the exception of BS 7671, yet members can not even view the 'On site guide' freely.

-------------------------
http://www.niceic.biz
 04 November 2010 10:17 PM
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simongallagher

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What do you mean by a free flow of information between teachers and students?

Do you mean that they should be free to photo-copy text books and hand them out? Or put copyright material on an intranet site for the students to look at?

If that were to happen, who would write these text books? What would be the point if there was no way to profit from them?

There is a free flow of information, and this can be done legally. Teaching establishments have libraries which will lend you the material free, and still protect the copyright holder.
 04 November 2010 10:40 PM
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ant1uk

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The c+g website is there for anyone to access so I think posting a link to it does not come under copyright.

I agree that if you want a copy of an authors book then you should pay for it as they have worked hard to publish it. and if it was free why would they bother?

In regard to exam papers those are copywrited and clearly says on them that they are the property of c+g.

c+g sell an exam sucess book which is published and written by them which is better because the questions are explained with answers on how to term your answers.

Here is a link for the 2391 exam success book if you want to buy it.

http://www.cityandguilds.com/24185.html
 05 November 2010 12:04 AM
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kj scott

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ant; it would appear that you have not read the distribution statement of the C&G document.
Whilst you may not have tried passing on information to students; have you never been in a classroom? If you have done either why are your comments so ill informed?

-------------------------
http://www.niceic.biz
 06 November 2010 10:59 AM
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simongallagher

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I have sat in plenty of classrooms and never had to break copyright laws, why have you?
 06 November 2010 11:12 AM
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kj scott

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Are you saying that you have never received a copy of a past paper, for any C&G course you have studied? I find that hard to believe.
ant; again I refer you to the stated permissions for the distribution of the C&G examination rules.

-------------------------
http://www.niceic.biz
 06 November 2010 11:17 AM
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ant1uk

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Scott

Read the front page of the exam paper it clearly says its the property of city and guilds and is to be returned at the end of the examination.

strictly speaking colleges are not authorised to hand out past exam papers.
 06 November 2010 07:29 PM
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kj scott

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That must be the original ant, not the two hundred photocopies that the college has made.

-------------------------
http://www.niceic.biz
 25 November 2010 09:19 PM
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1652

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So in that case then all we can do is post the answers to the questions in full and reference these to the paper............

Most folks have copies of.......... 2391 papers I might have 20 different papers to hand or not. and the answers to them all or not. And diagrams or not. Hmmmmmmmmm or not.

Funny old world.
 02 December 2010 08:26 PM
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CMElectrical

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Talking about copy right, how come the IET allowed a certain program to make it easy for people to "print to PDF" all the contents of the Industrial pack, for free. Which has probably done its rounds to everybody?

Strange that!

-------------------------
Regards
Carl.
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