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Topic Title: 2 questions
Topic Summary: kitchen dinner
Created On: 23 February 2010 10:02 AM
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 23 February 2010 10:02 AM
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zeeper

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Is the whole room classed as a kitchen or is it just the kitchen area. The reason I ask is my brother is building a extension to his kitchen under the supervision of BC. To turn it into a kitchen dinner, he would like a double socket in the dinning area, but obvious thats a expensive socket if its notifiable.
 23 February 2010 10:10 AM
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spinlondon

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Surely if he is building the extension under the supervision of BC, then the work has already been notified?
 23 February 2010 10:28 AM
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AJJewsbury

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It's kitchen up to 3m from the sink.

- Andy.
 23 February 2010 10:38 AM
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rocknroll

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Depends on what was was declared on the original application was there any mention of notifiable work;

Was the customer charged the plans fee and/or an inspection fee and not the notification fee??? or all three, you need to check with your building inspector he will have all the details.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 23 February 2010 12:21 PM
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zeeper

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Surely if he is building the extension under the supervision of BC, then the work has already been notified?


I only popped in for a cup of tea on the way back from my parents and found him in a large hole in the garden(Hes dug the footings by hand in his spare time and BC were coming to check em on monday last). So I dont have the full S.P. on it but he mention the electrics and that to get BC to check the electrics was extra money.Which got me thinking if the electrics were even notifiable, and if they were not notifiable then I would help him to install them and do a minor works.The total extension is ground level and consists of a bed room , toilet with wash basin and dinning area all off from the kitchen.Its not a large extension by any imagination. I dont believe any new circuits from the 30mA protected Consumer unit will be required.

It's kitchen up to 3m from the sink.


Cheers

Depends on what was was declared on the original application was there any mention of notifiable work;

Was the customer charged the plans fee and/or an inspection fee and not the notification fee??? or all three, you need to check with your building inspector he will have all the details.


Cheers for that, he has already completed a loft conversion himself with BC supervision last year(In his spare time, dont know where he gets the energy). Which he did the electrics himself and bc did not ask for any documentation in reference to the electrics . So hes not totally naive to the system but is on a tight money constaints and I wouldn't what him to waste it on employing a domestic installer if he doesnt need to. Although the last time the old BC chap he worked with was very helpfull he said the young chap this time was a bit offish.
 23 February 2010 02:15 PM
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normcall

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You do not notify separately for each bit of the building regulations.
Either the job needs building Control or it doesn't. Electrics have nuffin to do with it.
Is is paying extra fee for footings, walls, insulation, drains etc to be inspected, Of course not.

-------------------------
Norman
 23 February 2010 02:20 PM
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spinlondon

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Would there be an extra fee, for alterations?
 23 February 2010 02:29 PM
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zeeper

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you would hope that norm, but he said they charge extra to inspect and test for electrical. And I know for a fact that east hampshire district council charge £355.90 for electrical inspection and testing on top of the normal charges.
 23 February 2010 02:51 PM
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rocknroll

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Electrical work as part of extensions or alterations to dwellings.

Applications involving electrical work shall be accompanied by a completed Statement of Intent indicating whether the work will be carried out by an electrician registered under a Competent Persons Scheme. A separate application is required for electrical work carried out by electricians not registered under a Competent Persons Scheme. The fee payable is based on the estimated cost of work (see Schedule 3).


Was this declared on the original application. ????

This fee may have already been paid none of you know, if not be prepared for the worst, I suspect the inspector will waive this and permit self-certification on production of a MWC as it is fairly minor works I would, but if you have a keen graduate engineer who knows,

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 23 February 2010 03:02 PM
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AJJewsbury

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Applications involving electrical work shall be accompanied by a completed Statement of Intent indicating whether the work will be carried out by an electrician registered under a Competent Persons Scheme. A separate application is required for electrical work carried out by electricians not registered under a Competent Persons Scheme. The fee payable is based on the estimated cost of work (see Schedule 3).

R&R - is this policy peculiar to electrics, or are there equivalents for other parts where Competent Persons Schemes exists - e.g. Glazing?

- Andy.
 23 February 2010 03:15 PM
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rocknroll

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Only replacement windows, doors etc; obviously the inspector will check the windows and doors on the extension for compliance.

Replacement Windows.

If you are having your windows replaced and the company is not FENSA registered, you must submit a Building Notice. Where the work is carried out to an existing dwelling and consists of the replacement of windows, roof lights, roof windows or external doors, the Building Notice charge will be £xx.xx (including VAT). If a Regularisation application is submitted the charge will be £xxx.xx (VAT exempt).


Obviously this where you need to declare everything on your original plan/application failing to do this leaves you open to other charges.
Before you submit a plan/application it pays to have a word with BC as they can often calculate a fee that covers all at sometimes a considerable saving.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------

Edited: 23 February 2010 at 03:22 PM by rocknroll
 23 February 2010 03:32 PM
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normcall

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Is this just in your area or an optional national one or has it not yet got this far north?

-------------------------
Norman
 23 February 2010 03:50 PM
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zeeper

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but if you have a keen graduate engineer who knows


Well he was threatening to bury him under the footings if he made him dig em any deeper.

I'll have a word with him see what hes put in for, I know he said hes already paid in excess of 450 notes to BC.
 23 February 2010 04:29 PM
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AJJewsbury

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obviously the inspector will check the windows and doors on the extension for compliance.

But not cables etc? Doesn't that risk falling foul of Anne Hemming letter?
Local authorities should ensure that charges for checking full plans applications or building notices and carrying out inspections of building work, including that relating to Part P, are pre-fixed in their charges scheme as required by the Building (Local Authority Charges) Regulations 1998. Authorities do not have powers to reassess a fixed charge, which they have levied for a particular application or notice, during the course of the work.


http://www.communities.gov.uk/...ldingregulationspart/

- Andy.
 23 February 2010 06:59 PM
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rocknroll

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The fees are fixed within LA boundaries, and they are displayed on your LA website either shedule 1,2,3 or table A,B,C.

But my point was that at the moment we are unaware of what was declared on the original submission, did the person fill in the Part P declaration form stating whether he was using a registered person or not, so often people forget this and other information that is subject to building regs notification, I wonder why, or has the inspector noticed that there is electrical work in force that was not declared, and warned there may be a further charge.

When we receive a notice we contact the person involved and quiz them on things like, is there any electrical work being done, are the drains being modified, moved or whatever plus other things and the fee is subject to the information given it does not include the services of a specialised inspector, structural engineer, surveyor or architect if required.

Builders are very clever at trying to hide things like electrics, plumbing, heating etc; that they will often do themselves so they dont have to pay a contractor, but we catch them and charge for an inspection by an approved contractor. If the information was declared at the time of the building notice we pay for the first and second inspection by an approved contractor, whats wrong with that.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 23 February 2010 07:03 PM
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normcall

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So we can expect basic LABC fees to fall to be augmented by 'specialist service inspection fees' then?

-------------------------
Norman
 23 February 2010 07:13 PM
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rocknroll

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Originally posted by: normcall

So we can expect basic LABC fees to fall to be augmented by 'specialist service inspection fees' then?


This if for extreme things like buildings on top of mines, subsidence, reclaimed land. The people you see running around drilling holes in the ground.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 24 February 2010 01:11 PM
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AJJewsbury

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Joined: 13 August 2003

If the information was declared at the time of the building notice we pay for the first and second inspection by an approved contractor, whats wrong with that.

That's fine!

The bit that worried me was:
A separate application is required for electrical work carried out by electricians not registered under a Competent Persons Scheme.

Given that the charges are usually banded on total value of works, a separate application would imply a separate charge - and because of the banding, probably a much higher total.

e.g. if charges were something like:
0-£1000: £200
£1000 - £10,000: £500

A job costing say £9,000 consisting of £1,000 electrics and £8,000 other works would be charged at £500 if one 'all inclusive' notification were allowed, but and extra £200 if the electrics had to be notified separately

- Andy.
 24 February 2010 02:01 PM
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normcall

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Interestingly, our LABC has a lot of rubbish out Part P (did you know there is a Part P qualification?) and even goes as far as having a separate notifying form for electrics - only it's exactly the same as a normal one, even going so far as to say use the normal form for Schedule 3 works.
Even the fees were 'amended' on February 15th to be the same as before.
There is something in the air, but I don't think they know what.
I'm seeing the Building Control Manager on Friday about something totally unrelated so I'll see if he says anything.

-------------------------
Norman
 24 February 2010 06:05 PM
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rocknroll

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Okay lets clear this up;

Most of the work is carried out under Table/Schedule 2 or B, lets say you are building an extension exceeding 10m^ but not exceeding 40m^ inside measurement, the full plan charge is say £500 and the building notice charge is say £500 so depending on which one you have arranged the charge to you is £500 and this covers inspection(s) and notification so if all things go well and you have told the truth on your application then you only pay £500.

Lets looks at Table/Schedule 3 or C, say you are building an extension that exceeds 60m^ at a cost of £6250 then you have a plan charge of say £200 and an inspection charge of say £600 the total you have to pay is £800 and if you have gone the building notice route it is still £800 this fee includes notification, generally you pay £200 and a week before your build-start you will receive an invoice for the inspection fee, if all goes to plan then £800 notes is all you pay, if things drag on then you may incur further charges for inspections.

When you fill in your application there should be a Part P declaration form informing BC as to whether you are using a registered electrician or not, if you have made a false declaration then you are liable for whatever charges are deemed necessary.

If your application is kosher then any electrical inspections (first and second fix) are paid for by the BC, if not kosher you know the answer to that.

We have a guest house extension where one night a loose hep pipe union came apart and brought the ceiling down, I cant comment on the problems found but put it this way our local "Johnpeckham" has had to do a fourth inspection today at their cost as things are really poorly.

Going back to my point regarding the OP where the guy is obviously an all rounder did he declare that he was doing the electrics, if he accidently forgot and a keen graduate has picked this up well good for him, do the crime, pay the fine. LOL

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
IET » Wiring and the regulations » 2 questions

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