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Topic Title: Main Bonding Lead pipe
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Created On: 21 December 2009 12:35 AM
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 21 December 2009 12:35 AM
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antric2

Posts: 1061
Joined: 20 October 2006

I require advice please.
Main water incomer comes out of hard floor and has about 10inches showing before dissappearing into plaster behind kitchen unit.
The visible part is lead.
I know it is not good practice to bond lead due to the possibillity of crushing the pipe but what do you do about bonding and why cant BS 951 clamps be used, as sometimes mentioned on this forum, as a loose connection until customer gets lead changed.Is differing metals the reason for not using BS951 clamps.
I would normally find copper nearest to stopcock and bond this or even crossbond at CH boiler but no boiler as storage heaters and no pipe visible.
Bathroom again is lead .
Where do I stand on this situation.
I have the job on hold at the moment to clarify my position but told customer to have lead changed.
What are the views of this forum and what would you do?
Regards
Antric
 21 December 2009 06:28 AM
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spinlondon

Posts: 4439
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How about one of those spring clamp jobbies, or soldering the cable to the pipe?
 21 December 2009 06:53 AM
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normcall

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Have you ever tried soldering a cable to a lead pipe filled with water?

-------------------------
Norman
 21 December 2009 01:13 PM
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AJJewsbury

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All the lead mains water pipes I've worked on have walls so think that it would take a large hammer an a significant amount of effort to crush them - they've resisted mains pressure for years after all. I'd have no worries about tightening a clamp around one.

(Lead gas pipes are quite different - much thinner walls - but then they only have to contain about 20 millibar - mains water can be closer to 16 bar! I guess the ones for low pressure water - e.g. hot water distribution - after the storage cistern - could be a thinner type too, but that shouldn't be an issue in this case).

- Andy.
 21 December 2009 01:33 PM
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OMS

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I tend to agree with Andy - a 951 on a lead water pipe is unlikely to ever be a problem.

Personally, I would advise the occupant to consider changing the lead pipe on health grounds

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 21 December 2009 01:51 PM
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spinlondon

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Perhaps they could arrange for a short length of copper pipe to be sweated in to attach the clamp to?
 21 December 2009 06:27 PM
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betnwah

Posts: 236
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Originally posted by: normcall

Have you ever tried soldering a cable to a lead pipe filled with water?

Would it be full if you turned the water off at the outside stopcock?
 21 December 2009 06:35 PM
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OMS

Posts: 19693
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Originally posted by: betnwah

Originally posted by: normcall



Have you ever tried soldering a cable to a lead pipe filled with water?


Would it be full if you turned the water off at the outside stopcock?


Probably yes unless you could find a drain point lower than the point at which you wanted to solder - personally I wouldn't do it and I worked for a while as a cable jointer so "sweating" is not an unknown art to me.

Stick a 951 on - you know it makes sense

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 21 December 2009 06:49 PM
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ffmickeyg

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stick a bs 951 on tighten just untill it stops moving better this way than no bonding ,advise costomer to change lead, for both health and safety grounds in writing,as ohms says you know it makes sense.
 21 December 2009 06:54 PM
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rocknroll

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Originally posted by: OMS

Originally posted by: betnwah

Originally posted by: normcall

Have you ever tried soldering a cable to a lead pipe filled with water?


Would it be full if you turned the water off at the outside stopcock?


Probably yes unless you could find a drain point lower than the point at which you wanted to solder - personally I wouldn't do it and I worked for a while as a cable jointer so "sweating" is not an unknown art to me.

Stick a 951 on - you know it makes sense

Regards

OMS


Its not that difficult to solder lead to copper if you use the right kind of gun and get your temperature right, but to save all that mess why not get a 'lead lock' for attaching lead to copper or plastic, (if you dont know what that is, google time. ).

Or as my learned friend pointed out a 951 will be more than adequate and makes sense, or if you can get hold of a 'constant force' cable clamp do so, they were designed for lead especially cable.

But there are some sneaky regulations around that state if you working with lead you should remove as much as is practicable from the installation.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 21 December 2009 07:58 PM
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kermit1202

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Originally posted by: spinlondon

Perhaps they could arrange for a short length of copper pipe to be sweated in to attach the clamp to?


I belive that joining any lead pipe with heat is forbiden now in the water regs.
 21 December 2009 08:01 PM
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seeker

Posts: 319
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Originally posted by: rocknroll

Originally posted by: OMS



Originally posted by: betnwah



Originally posted by: normcall



Have you ever tried soldering a cable to a lead pipe filled with water?




Would it be full if you turned the water off at the outside stopcock?




Probably yes unless you could find a drain point lower than the point at which you wanted to solder - personally I wouldn't do it and I worked for a while as a cable jointer so "sweating" is not an unknown art to me.



Stick a 951 on - you know it makes sense



Regards



OMS




Its not that difficult to solder lead to copper if you use the right kind of gun and get your temperature right, but to save all that mess why not get a 'lead lock' for attaching lead to copper or plastic, (if you dont know what that is, google time. ).



Or as my learned friend pointed out a 951 will be more than adequate and makes sense, or if you can get hold of a 'constant force' cable clamp do so, they were designed for lead especially cable.



But there are some sneaky regulations around that state if you working with lead you should remove as much as is practicable from the installation.



regards



I'm not familiar with any regulation stating that you should remove the lead in so many words. In my recollection its suggested that if you have to cut or otherwise disturb potable water pipes you should use lead-lok or similar joints instead of solder/sweated joints to avoid breaking up the passivated lining which has built up on the inner surface. Can you point to or give a reference to the regulation you are meaning?
 21 December 2009 08:46 PM
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rocknroll

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A while back various bits of legislation came into force after a European Directive and the various Water Authority's have a period of time to change the water pipes from lead to whatever.

Information was passed down to the various organisations water, gas, heating, HVAC etc, which basically stated.

Where replacement is preferred as the strategic means for achieving compliance, benefits will be limited if a water supplier replaces its part of the lead connection pipe but the property owner does not replace his/her part of the connection pipe and internal plumbing. However, the opportunistic replacement of lead connection pipes should be encouraged for example during mains refurbishment programmes. Water suppliers should continue to take active steps in their area to prevent the use by plumbers of lead-containing solders.

I am not directly involved in any of the above areas noted now, perhaps your local Water Authority will be able to give you more information on the subject of lead pipework.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 21 December 2009 10:36 PM
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antric2

Posts: 1061
Joined: 20 October 2006

Thank you all for helpfull comments.
Even after so long in the job I still feel that second opinions are vital even with what appears to be an obvious answer.
Regards
Antric
 22 December 2009 11:46 AM
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betnwah

Posts: 236
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Originally posted by: OMS
Probably yes unless you could find a drain point lower than the point at which you wanted to solder - personally I wouldn't do it and I worked for a while as a cable jointer so "sweating" is not an unknown art to me.

Stick a 951 on - you know it makes sense

What about crimping a lug onto the cable and attaching it to the pipe with a self-tapping screw?
 22 December 2009 12:00 PM
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OMS

Posts: 19693
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What about crimping a lug onto the cable and attaching it to the pipe with a self-tapping screw?

Brilliant, that would do it for sure - I'm amazed that no one thought of it before

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 22 December 2009 12:16 PM
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ebee

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Don`t be silly , it would let air into the water and the water would go sour quicker

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 22 December 2009 12:27 PM
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CarlCosby

Posts: 484
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Wouldnt water start p***ing out?

Legrand do a good clamp, you just push and twist on to the pipe, they do two sizes.

-------------------------
Regards
Carl
 22 December 2009 01:07 PM
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OMS

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Wouldnt water start p***ing out?


Well spotted Carl - I guess that's the fatal flaw in the plan then

OMS

Have we reached the age of stupid yet ?

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Failure is always an option
 22 December 2009 02:17 PM
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perspicacious

Posts: 7236
Joined: 18 April 2006

"Have we reached the age of stupid yet ?"

A long time ago which is why I try only to post when I'm sober

Regards

BAD
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